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Woodworth

A plea to Fuji ...

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My current thoughts on continuing to use Fuji.


 


I have been using various Fuji cameras for a number of years professionally, however I have reached something of an impasse. The chief issue I have is the lack of in body image stabilisation (IBIS).


 


I am a great fan of Fuji cameras (with the exception of the X-pro series which I have tested extensively but decided that the X-T1 and X-E2 suit me better). I love their lenses, particularly the primes (I have an extensive set of both zooms and primes) but I cannot understand why if they won’t stabilise the prime lenses they don’t have at least one body with IBIS?


 


The argument that IBIS may result in a slight deterioration in edge image quality has been put forward by Fuji and I can see the point they make, however, if the whole shot is ruined because of camera shake nothing is gained. Those seeking ultimate quality can always switch off IBIS after-all. The 90mm is a prime candidate for inducing camera shake in my experience. When shooting in good light levels this is no problem but when using available light such as photographing a play or for candid work in the evening the problem becomes real. My solution is to use higher ISO to  allow higher shutter speeds, but this has resulted in noisier images than I like or want to accept.


 


The Fuji zoom lenses have image stabilisation but this is of no comfort to those who need the extra speed a faster prime lens allows. 2.8 zooms whilst lovely, do not compare to lenses such as the 56/1.2 for example. Also there are those who have chosen prime lenses simply because they suit their photographic style and habits better. Traditionally fast primes are the weapon of choice for the available light photographer and to have neither IBIS or lens stabilisation in prime lenses seems to be a retrograde step. Just about everything these days seems to have stabilisation of some sort, and this is a great boon, so it baffles me why Fuji persist in depriving us of this advantage.


 


As a professional I have the budget to access to other systems and have tried both the Sony A7 series and the Olympus Pen F and have found that they are both at an advantage because of IBIS.


Granted the Micro 4/3 size sensor of the Olympus may be at a disadvantage compared to the Fuji in terms of noise, dynamic range and shallow depth of field and the Sony is handicapped with a smaller lens range, but they both excel when it comes to low light photography because of IBIS.


 


I recently photographed a play professionally. I used both my Fuji cameras and also the Olympus Pen F and to Fuji’s shame the Olympus produced superior images. The reason for this was simply down to the Olympus’ IBIS. Each Fuji image was slightly softer than the Olympus versions. I noticed that the Olympus was just a tiny little noisier, but only when viewed at 100%. I did a similar thing at a wedding with the Sony A7SII and my Fuji cameras and again the Sony gave a sharper image.


 


I love Fuji colours, I love their sharpness in good light, I love the size and ergonomics of the cameras, I love their prime lenses, I love the feel of a Fuji camera and lens in my hands, I love working with the images in post-production but the lack of IBIS is killing it for me.


 


As a professional, I need to use the equipment that delivers the results that satisfy both me and my clients. Sadly I am increasingly reaching for my Sony A7 series equipment. My heart doesn’t want to do this, but I cannot sacrifice image quality for loyalty.


 


So this is a heart felt plea to Fuji, please introduce an X series camera with IBIS before it is too late.


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Many of Fuji users have mixed setup - Fuji&Canon, Fuji&Nikon, Fuji&Film, ... etc. As a professional with budget you can afford Fuji&Sony, isn't it? Fuji has clearly stated they aren't going to implement IBIS, so what the use to put yourself in a position Everything or Nothing... Everyone has his own wishlist but living with what he's given. They say upcoming 80f2.8 macro will have OIS so maybe you'll be able to replace 90f2 with it for low light.

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It does seem strange to make a 90mm lens without optical stabilization.

 

Lack of in-body stabilization is also an issue for me - it's the only area where other systems have a significant advantage over the latest Fuji bodies in my view.

 

I also suspect that it's the large investment required to develop effective in-body stabilization that is the real issue - and the technical arguments are just a smokescreen.

 

Unless you use a tripod there will always be some movement - so the higher shutter speeds are just reducing the impact on the image, but there will still be some impact.  Plus the noise from higher ISO means that there's always some compromises - so saying that they are not fitting IBIS because of the effects on the image is not logical.

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Every camera and every lens is a compromise. If the Fuji x-t2 would have a touchscreen and IBIS, it would still not be a perfect camera, because everyone would laugh at the 2500 dollar/euro price it would likely be. And just because some people desire and can affort to buy such X-T2 doesn't mean it is a profitable proposition for Fuji to create such camera. Same with lenses, the Fuji 90mm F2 is an outdoor portrait lens for good light and with its quad linear motor great for moving subjects. Just because it is a prime or F2 doesn't imply that it is meant for lowlight photography. Other primes generally work fine for me in lowlight. 

 

Maybe my experience with lowlight photography is limited, but I don't know what I would need IBIS for. Either I photograph still life and use a tripod if I really want to keep my ISO at 200. Or there are moving subjects in my frame, generally people, which require a 1/60 shot to freeze them. In the latter case, IBIS is not going to improve the 1/60 shot significantly. Photography is a creative proces and choosing the right camera/lens and knowing and compensating for the compromises which the manufacturer had to make is part of the job. I see Fuji photographers being profitable in nearly all areas of photography. So if my shots are bad, I blame my lack of creativity to get the shot right and do better next time.

 

If you demand perfection at any price, then maybe Fuji is not your system.

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Every camera and every lens is a compromise. If the Fuji x-t2 would have a touchscreen and IBIS, it would still not be a perfect camera, because everyone would laugh at the 2500 dollar/euro price it would likely be. And just because some people desire and can affort to buy such X-T2 doesn't mean it is a profitable proposition for Fuji to create such camera. Same with lenses, the Fuji 90mm F2 is an outdoor portrait lens for good light and with its quad linear motor great for moving subjects. Just because it is a prime or F2 doesn't imply that it is meant for lowlight photography. Other primes generally work fine for me in lowlight. 

 

Maybe my experience with lowlight photography is limited, but I don't know what I would need IBIS for. Either I photograph still life and use a tripod if I really want to keep my ISO at 200. Or there are moving subjects in my frame, generally people, which require a 1/60 shot to freeze them. In the latter case, IBIS is not going to improve the 1/60 shot significantly. Photography is a creative proces and choosing the right camera/lens and knowing and compensating for the compromises which the manufacturer had to make is part of the job. I see Fuji photographers being profitable in nearly all areas of photography. So if my shots are bad, I blame my lack of creativity to get the shot right and do better next time.

 

If you demand perfection at any price, then maybe Fuji is not your system.

 

"the Fuji 90mm F2 is an outdoor portrait lens for good light" Really? I think many would disagree! It is a lens for many purposes.

 

"Just because it is a prime or F2 doesn't imply that it is meant for lowlight photography." Yes, but not necessarily. A fast lens that is sharp wide open lends itself to low light work. If you're going to shoot at f5.6 or f8 why not save some money and space in your kit bag and get a zoom? I think most experienced photographers choose fast lenses for situations where stopping down isn't possible, such as low light work for example.

 

"Maybe my experience with lowlight photography is limited, but I don't know what I would need IBIS for."  When you need to shoot wide open and at a low shutter speed IBIS will make the difference between a useable picture and one that you need to bin. It won't stop subject movement blur but it will help alleviate camera shake.

 

"So if my shots are bad, I blame my lack of creativity to get the shot right and do better next time" It's not just a lack of creativity, but also a lack of technique and the wrong choice of equipment. If my pictures are bad, there is no "next time" my clients won't pay the bill or come back for more work. As it is I have plenty of repeat clients.

 

"If you demand perfection at any price, then maybe Fuji is not your system." Come one Opteron, that's not very friendly. For one I didn't "demand perfection at any price" these are your words not mine, I merely made one criticism of Fuji and you want to show me the door? Shame on you!

 

The point is Fuji would bless us with IBIS and I don't think this would be impossible or unreasonable.

Edited by Woodworth

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"the Fuji 90mm F2 is an outdoor portrait lens for good light" Really? I think many would disagree! It is a lens for many purposes.

 

"Just because it is a prime or F2 doesn't imply that it is meant for lowlight photography." Yes, but not necessarily. A fast lens that is sharp wide open lends itself to low light work. If you're going to shoot at f5.6 or f8 why not save some money and space in your kit bag and get a zoom? I think most experienced photographers choose fast lenses for situations where stopping down isn't possible, such as low light work for example.

 

Of course it can work in low light, but if was really made for low light it would be with OIS, bigger and more expensive.

 

"Maybe my experience with lowlight photography is limited, but I don't know what I would need IBIS for."  When you need to shoot wide open and at a low shutter speed IBIS will make the difference between a useable picture and one that you need to bin. It won't stop subject movement blur but it will help alleviate camera shake.

 

Maybe it is just me, but I cannot think of an example when you need IBIS to get the shot. Mind giving me an example?

 

 

"If you demand perfection at any price, then maybe Fuji is not your system." Come one Opteron, that's not very friendly. For one I didn't "demand perfection at any price" these are your words not mine, I merely made one criticism of Fuji and you want to show me the door? Shame on you!

 

The point is Fuji would bless us with IBIS and I don't think this would be impossible or unreasonable.

 

You make IBIS sound like the holy grail in photography. Of course it is not impossible or unreasonable, but I personally think it adds very little value at a high cost. If it would be free, yes please add it to the next iteration of cameras! I'm just not willing to pay extra for it. Camera prices are increasing and I think Fuji made a good compromise not adding it and focussing on stuff which at least matter more to me. Same with the touchscreen in my opinion, which some reviews mention as a 'con'. 

Edited by Opteron

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I don't really know why you object to image stabilisation so much. You can always switch it off if you don't like it but I can't switch it on if it's not there in the first place!

 

It's a common feature with many cameras, it serves a useful purpose (even if you can't see that) and it does no-one any harm.

 

I would pay more for a Fuji with IBIS, but I'm not asking them to make IBIS in all their cameras so there is no need to worry about price hikes.

 

I can see as you say that IBIS doesn't matter to you, well that's jolly good for you, but please don't expect me to agree as I and others have different priorities. 

Edited by Woodworth

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IBIS can matter to people if it is something they never use, but have to pay for to get the body.

 

For a serious video platform, you either need stabilized fast primes or IBIS.

 

Lets take a look at the new cost of the Sony A7II compared to the Fuji X-T2, they are both roughly in the same sort of price bracket. In the UK A7II body £1349 and the X-T2 £1399, The A7II has both full frame and IBIS whereas the X-T2 doesn't.

 

Many have protested at the price of the X-T2 and in comparison to the price of the X-T1 (based on pre X-T2 introduction of about £800) and again there are those early adopters of the X-T2 (the lucky few) who have been disappointed that the price hike has not been reflected in a similar rise in quality/features/performance (not my sentiment). With this in mind, in my opinion, Fuji could have incorporated IBIS into the X-T2 without the need for a further price increase. Also not every Fuji would need IBIS, maybe just one version of a X-T2 (X-T2as) or an X-E3?

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I honestly don't think IBIS will ever be incorporated into their bodies, it has been stated several times in numerous places and events.

 

Now, if IBIS is something you really need, but still want fast primes and weight is an issue for you, Olympus is doing something really impressive with their new EM-1 MkII camera. So far, almost no other systems have as many primes as the m43 system.

 

But you would lose some of the low light performances (smaller sensor) and a tad bit on general lens quality.

 

Also, the Sony A7II will be 2 years old next spring, while the X-T2 just got recently released and you need to take the lenses into considerations too.

I would personally prefer to have a super bad body with a great lens then the contrary.

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well, the thing is that even if they would eagerly read all the pleas, polls, suggestions, demands and petitions which periodically appear here and elsewhere, the planning of any such a change would take years from plan to final production. 

 

This is a bit like steering a tanker, it takes planning, can’t happen overnight.

 

They have repeatedly said that this is not going to happen. Even if they were to change their mind abruptly ( and Japanese industrialists are not known to be of the impulsive persuasion) it would take a very long time for this to come to fruition.

 

As for Fuji missing a trick. 

 

They might but there is not such a thing like a camera which would or could please everyone.

 

If you read the comments here http://www.fujirumors.com/i-have-the-proof-fujifilm-reads-fujirumors-every-day-and-confirms-x-e2-fw-in-octnov-x-t1-4-0-on-june-22/ they will have to produce dozens of cameras to fitt all the wants ( few have real “ needs” most have “ wants”) and even then, you will still have people complaining that the button so and so was round instead of being oval!

 

The thing is that there are many cameras, if you like one you like it “ as is” not “ the way it would be if they were listening to what I say” because there are so many who would think the exact opposite.

 

I agree the camera is a tool, you may want to use different tools for different purposes or a different tool altogether if, ultimately, this turns out not to be your tool of choice.

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Personally, I find IBIS to be really great in a lot of circumstances.  Modern IS has made it so the situations that may have once required a tripod now can be shot handheld.

 

I also think it is a great selling feature on a comparison list so I would have to wonder if the reason that Fuji doesn't add it are technical in nature.  Is it possible that something to do with the architecture of the camera and/or lenses makes adding IBIS difficult or impractical?

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Personally, I find IBIS to be really great in a lot of circumstances.

 

Actually all of us find it's great, but .... we just can't change the weather yet...

Edited by mdm

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Even if there would be such a thing as a poll to define what the “ perfect” camera would need to be, there would be the losers of the poll who would say, “ the poll is rigged, I won’t acknowledge its results! We have been robbed of the ideal camera!”.

 

There is no way to produce ONE camera to fit everyone’s wishes. That’s why there are so many brands and so many models so that we can all buy the camera closest to out wants.

 

It might be a Fuji... or not.

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IBIS is a features which doesn't cost much, can be turned off, is increasingly provided by nearly all the mainstream mirrorless ILC systems.  It is one of those things that is becoming so common that it is moving from being a competitive advantage to a situation were not having it is a competitive disadvantage.

 

My hope is that for current generation cameras Fuji didn't arbitrarily decide to leave it out since there is obvious desire in the market.  That is why I choose to believe that there is a technical reason that makes it more difficult for Fuji than the other manufacturers.

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Whatever the reason, Fuji has not come to that decision on a whim, they certainly have great technicians and obviously they have focus groups which have helped their marketing to determine which would be a successful market strategy, and until now, within their niche they have been very successful with the cameras of the highest segment (not quite so much, with exception of the X-A series in Thailand, with their cheaper cameras).

 

They know certainly better than we do and they possibly understand that with their limited means within a company that makes the majority of its money in other sectors (50% copiers, 25%Instant film for photography and only 25% the various cameras of which the most sold are the instant cameras, within the digital camera the only profitable are were the high end segment, the rest has depressing sales figures).

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I just saw the "why don't people buy Fuji" poll and didn't find any really adequate options, so I thought I'd go into more detail in the forums. This thread seems to be close enough to the same topic.

 

I was pretty hyped for the X-T2 all the way until I found out that the live feed in the viewfinder only works up to 5fps. For fast action, that effectively makes the camera no better than an entry level SLR. Apparently Sony has viewfinders that keep a lag free image in the viewfinder even at a 24fps burst.

I still want a Fuji, but I can't look at the X-T2 without feeling like it's crippled or unfinished. Fuji should continue to work on the overall user interface as well, I'm not a fan of the funky three quarters articulating screen, and it should be a touchscreen. Hopefully their next mid-range body is a well rounded device.

Edited by 9.V.III

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I am absolutely positive that they know the market better than some give them credit to do, and that they know which are the strong points of their system and which  the weak ones.

 

Fuji has a strong corporate identity and image.

 

I am sure that all they do ( I am not saying that I agree with all their choices or that they never made and make mistakes) is the fruit of hard work which includes market research and knowledge.

 

They have worked to position themselves in a different place than the rest of the cameras hoping to create a strong position and loyalty among the customers.

 

Can they convince everyone to buy a Fuji? No,they can’t. No brand can. They know that. So, instead of running circles trying to beat the competition at their own game they have called a different game.

 

Within their market segment they are very strong. Outside they would be a brand trying to beat much larger companies.

 

 

They did try that game, unsuccessfully, and obviously decided that that wasn’t the way forward for them.

 

It is clear that the many nay sayers want another camera. So be it.

Edited by milandro

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OIS/IBIS would not help me with low light photography in any way (video is different)

 

Image stabilisation helps with camera shake at slow shutter speeds, However when I shoot in low light it is one of the following two situations

 

1 - Gigs/Events (photo'ing people)

​Motion Blur becomes an issue along time before camera shake does. No ibis/ois can prevent motion blur

 

2 - Long exposures/Light Painting

 

Shutter speed is slower than 10 seconds and this is tripod work, ibis can't prevent camera shake handholding for 10 seconds +

 

I doubt I'd ever use a 90mm for events as it puts you too far away and is a lens i've never had a desire to buy.

The 35 F/1.4 or 56 F/1.2 working with shutter speeds 1/60 or faster are perfectly usable handheld (for me) any slower than 1/60 seconds the images aren't sharp due to motion blur so having ibis wont help me.

 

Where OIS/IBIS makes sense (and is needed) is for longer lenses and zoom lenses >100mm

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Fujifilm stated that X-mount is not built for ibis, the diameter is to small for moving the chip around, the corners will go black.

And ois can be built in the lenses instead and optimised for every different lens.

Primes with ois will be softer so thats the explanation that you aint get it.

IBIS in X-mount is never ever gonna happend.

Sorry on phone so cant link it.

 

Sent from my Nexus 6 mobile

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