FUJI X-PRO2 MENU PROBLEM

[Paul Crespel]

FUJI ITALY have just confirmed to me, by email, that the X-Pro2 has the same problem as the X100T.

 

When using the optical viewfinder, if you press the menu button the menu appears IN THE VIEWFINDER.

 

Nobody navigates the full menu in the viewfinder.

 

On previous Fuji cameras when using the viewfinder the menu always appeared on the LCD display, as it does with Canon, Nikon and most other major manufacturers.  There was the option to see the menu in the viewfinder, but by default it was on the LCD.

 

This option has been removed on the new X-Pro2 and the Fuji X100T, and the camera menus are now extremely slow and cumbersome to use in fast moving situations.

This important change has not been noticed by any of the professional reviewers, even though it's very obvious after just 30 seconds playing with the cameras.

 

Fuji's reply (available for anybody who wants it) is that everybody must use the eye sensor mode.

 

Canon, Nikon, Leica, Panasonic, Sony, and even Fuji always adhered to the convention that the main menu appears on the LCD by default.  There is a good reason for this.... it's what works best, and it's what people want.  Fuji have moved the goalposts, and now the main menu can only be seen on the LCD if you use eye sensor mode, or you change your view mode to view the menu, then press the view mode button another 3 times when you want to go back to using the viewfinder to take a photo.  This is going to cause people to miss photographs.

 

Please be aware that if you buy an X-Pro2 or an X100T the menu will no longer work like menus have always worked on all cameras.

[jim0266]

Yep, this is incredibly stupid on Fuji's part. I've learned to work around it on my X100T but it's still annoying. They got it right on the original X100....

[darknj]

Also have the same issues on the X-T1, it's not that bad once you get used to press the eye sensor button to change from Eye Sensor + EvF only to directly Eye Sensor, make your changes, take your shot and press the sensor button 3 more times to have it on EvF only again.

Part of my workflow now.

[Paul Crespel]

darknj, the problem is our workflow has increased by several seconds, and that's more than enough to miss several good shots.

 

What possessed Fuji to go against universally accepted convention?

 

The email I have from Massimo of Fuji Italia says that Fuji changed it as a result of numerous requests.  I think if that were true we'd have seen a lot of complaints in forums that the old system didn't work - there have never been any such comments or complaints, so I think Massimo must have done a course in creative writing

 

Here is Massimo's email, an a translation below:

 

Anche la Pro2 ha la nuova modalità, come tutte le nuova macchine col minino ibrido che usciranno in futuro
Abbiamo fatto la modifica a seguito delle numerose richieste pervenutoci.
In sostanza chi forza l’utilizzo del mirino nella maggior parte dei casi vuole evitare inquinamento luminoso, per restare invisibili o non disturbare (tipo teatro)
Il sensore occhio invece permette di vedere il menu anche sull’ LCD

 

TRANSLATION

The Pro2 also has the new modality, as will have all new cameras with hybrid viewfinders.

We have made the change as a result of numerous requests.

Substantially, most viewfinder users want to avoid light pollution, to remain invisible or to avoid causing a disturbance (e.g. theatre).

The eye sensor allows you to also see the menu on the LCD

 

There is one simple word to sum-up Massimo's observations - Bullshit!

 

All Fuji cameras with hybrid viewfinders, or any type of viewfinder, prior to the X100T and the X-Pro2, showed the main menu on the LCD by default, but all offered the OPTION to display the menu in the viewfinder instead of the LCD.  So, Massimo's argument about light pollution was already catered for on the earlier models.  Fuji took away an option, and just made two, what could have been fantastic cameras, unfit for purpose.

 

Well done Massimo!  :D

[adzman808]

I love that on the XP1 in VF only mode, that when it's on OVF and you hit the menu or Q menu, it comes up on the LCD

 

I also love that on the XP1 in OVF mode, if you have a Fn for ISO you can change it with the scroll wheel!

 

I think I just love the XP1....

 

Lets see what the Pro2 is like... I took my XT1 out the other day, and tried to imagine it with a OVF and decided that it would still seem very digital compared with XP1

[adzman808]

Do we know if the XP2 has a VF+eye sensor setting like on the XT?

[Paul Crespel]

adzman808, the XP2 does have eye sensor setting.  It's what Fuji Italia says we must all now use, but eye sensor is slow, and it drains the battery because the LCD remains permanently on while your eye is not at the viewfinder.  There's also a pause when changing from one to the other, which is enough to lose shots, and if you use it, you create the light pollution that Fuji Italia were so anxious to avoid

[adzman808]

adzman808, the XP2 does have eye sensor setting.  It's what Fuji Italia says we must all now use, but eye sensor is slow, and it drains the battery because the LCD remains permanently on while your eye is not at the viewfinder.  There's also a pause when changing from one to the other, which is enough to lose shots, and if you use it, you create the light pollution that Fuji Italia were so anxious to avoid

What I mean is that on the XT1 there is a setting, EVF+eye sensor

 

What this does is turn off the EVF (& the LCD) when no eye is at the VF

 

I wondered if the X-Pro2 has this (for example the X-Pro1 does not, either the LCD or the VF has to be on all the time)

[Paul Crespel]

addzman808, ok I didn't understand, and in that case I don't know the answer.

[flysurfer]

I'm glad they fixed this issue in the X100T and X-Pro2, it's what works best for me, and it's what I want. 

[Paul Crespel]

Flysurfer, they fixed it for you, even though you had the option to make it how you wanted, using the menu in EVF view. 

 

However, by fixing it for you, they have not balanced the "fix" with the equivalent option for those who don't want it.

 

You had an option to view menus in the VF or on the LCD.  We no longer have that option in a way that's usable under pressure.

 

Out of interest, how do you cope with Canon, Nikon, Sony etc.?  They all have the menus on the LCD.

[flysurfer]

Flysurfer, they fixed it for you, even though you had the option to make it how you wanted, using the menu in EVF view. 

 

 

They fixed it for everybody who complained. Must have been many complaints. Who knows? I didn't complain, as I always use eye detection, anyway, so it wasn't high on my list. I made a different suggestion (see below).

 

I like that it's consistent now. Setting the camera to "Viewfinder ONLY" means that only the viewfinder is displaying stuff and the LCD stays off. There are other modes (like eye-detection) and maybe Fuji should add another one that allows users to pick a screen for the menu and one for composition. That's what I had suggested after the X-E2 came out, I did so several times, nobody in Tokyo seems to listen, so that is that. 

[Begi Nabara]

 

I would respectfully request that you stop spamming all the forums with your minor grievances.

There are plenty of other cameras out there which could fill your personal needs.

[flysurfer]

 

Out of interest, how do you cope with Canon, Nikon, Sony etc.?  They all have the menus on the LCD.

 

I don't use Canon, Nikon, Sony etc. 

Why would I?

[Begi Nabara]

 nobody in Tokyo seems to listen, so that is that. 

Don't worry, it's not just you.

They don't listen to Paul either.

[flysurfer]

Don't worry, it's not just you.

They don't listen to Paul either.

 

Not sure if that's a bad thing given the tone and attitude in which this complaint is presented.

 

Obviously, Fuji can't and won't implement every suggestion and they certainly can't make everybody happy. But they could offer more options to customize the cameras for different preferences. Make the cameras more flexible, so they work for a larger group of users and shooting styles. It's all firmware, no hardware changes required.

 

It's the same with the ISO dial (electronic and programmable vs. pseudo-mechanical and non-programmable). Some like it one way, others prefer the other. Fuji could find ways to make both groups happy (I made suggestions how to fix that dilemma as long as 2 years ago), but they obviously don't, as seen in the X-T1 and now X-Pro2 with their pseudo-manual dials that exclude ISO from all custom user settings.

[CRAusmus]

So let me try and understand the issue...

 

If you have your camera set to EVF Only, the LCD doesn't work?  Isn't this how it's supposed to work?

Or is it supposed to work only when you push the Menu Button and you're in EVF Only Mode?

 

I've never shot a Canon, or Nikon, Mirrorless; but are you all saying that they will display the Menu on the LCD even when in EVF only mode?

 

 

It would be kind of cool if while in Auto ISO, you could push the function button and change your ISO to a manual setting like you can on Pro1.  This would be cool for both Pro2 and XT-1/2...

[Nick05]

So let me try and understand the issue...

 

If you have your camera set to EVF Only, the LCD doesn't work?  Isn't this how it's supposed to work?

Or is it supposed to work only when you push the Menu Button and you're in EVF Only Mode?

 

I've never shot a Canon, or Nikon, Mirrorless; but are you all saying that they will display the Menu on the LCD even when in EVF only mode?

 

 

It would be kind of cool if while in Auto ISO, you could push the function button and change your ISO to a manual setting like you can on Pro1.  This would be cool for both Pro2 and XT-1/2...

If I remember the way it worked before was that if you were in EVF only before, the menu still used the LCD screen on the back. You could also tell it to use the EVF for the menu. Now it seems that both are the same and there is no way to change it. I can see reasons for both sides, but I agree it would be nice to have the option to change it. For example, my X-T1 plays the image on the LCD when I have it set to EVF only, but my X-E2 plays it back in the EVF.

 

I like to use the EVF for shooting, but don't necessarily want to hold the camera to my eye to go through the menu to format a card for example.

[Paul Crespel]

So let me try and understand the issue...

 

If you have your camera set to EVF Only, the LCD doesn't work?  Isn't this how it's supposed to work?

Or is it supposed to work only when you push the Menu Button and you're in EVF Only Mode?

 

I've never shot a Canon, or Nikon, Mirrorless; but are you all saying that they will display the Menu on the LCD even when in EVF only mode?

 

 

It would be kind of cool if while in Auto ISO, you could push the function button and change your ISO to a manual setting like you can on Pro1.  This would be cool for both Pro2 and XT-1/2...

Hi Clinton,

 

Most Canon, Nikon and other makes of cameras don't have EVF.  They are mostly SLRs.  You use the viewfinder to take the photos, and you use the LCD to view them, and to view the menu.  You can't see the menu in the viewfinder of the majority of cameras on sale today.

 

Fuji followed this convention.  OVF mode behaved like all other cameras.  You used OVF to take the photo, and the LCD to view the photo or to navigate the menu.  It's really not easy navigating a big menu through a little eye hole.  Fuji also gave the option to have everything in the viewfinder, if you chose EVF mode.

 

Now, on the X100T and the XP2, Fuji have removed the OVF/LCD option.  The OVF option now forces you to view the menu in the viewfinder, but strangely the photos on the LCD... there is no logic in that, if their arguments about intrusiveness and light pollution are to be believed. 

 

So now, somebody taking photos in a theatre can navigate the menu in the viewfinder, but as soon as they press the arrow button to view a photo they've just taken, the whole theatre lights up.

 

I think Fuji have listened to too many complaints from vociferous people who really don't have a clue about real-world photography, and have created a monumental failure.  Fuji could have simply provided them with an option, without breaking something that has worked for all camera manufacturers and photographers for the past 15 years.

 

This problem is so bad that for the type of street photography that I do the X100T cannot be successfully used, and I have reverted to the X100S. 

[darknj]

darknj, the problem is our workflow has increased by several seconds, and that's more than enough to miss several good shots.

 

[...]

 

I can agree that it has slowed down a bit, but not by that much. I just have to press the button once to get into LCD + Eye Sensor mode, if speed is the essence, I will leave the camera on that state for the remaining of the event and just swap batteries more often or consider turning the camera off when there is a slow down in pace or swap back to Eye Sensor only.

 

Also, what convention ? Nobody around has had a long career shooting digital DSLR, the system has been around a bit more than 16 years. I know boys who even had their first kiss at that age.

 

But more seriously, it is not something that is affecting me much, I got used at navigating the Q menu directly from the EvF and keep the other eye open just in case something is happening.

 

Is it convenient ? Not one bit! But I have seen worse from other manufacturers.

[Paul Crespel]

darknj, just a thought.... do you wear glasses?

 

If you don't, then try navigating a menu in a viewfinder with glasses on, it's really not much fun.

 

If I remove my glasses and use the diopter adjustment, I can't see what I want to photograph.  If I leave my glasses on I have problems navigating the menu in the viewfinder.  I guess I'm not the only photographer who wears glasses.  I cannot use contact lenses.

 

It used to work well for everybody, there was an option that worked well for everybody.... now that option has gone

[darknj]

[...]

 

It used to work well for everybody, there was an option that worked well for everybody.... now that option has gone

 

Luckily for me, I still don't. But I can get behind that, I tried to shoot with sunglasses a few time and it was super annoying to do the menu settings even with the optional long eyecup on the X-T1. I was still able to make do but mostly because I know my Q menu by heart now.

 

Also, please accept my apologies for previous comment, I was not considerate enough to notice that you were wearing glasses. This isn't really Fuji's strong suit.

[CRAusmus]

Oh I see.  Guess I never realized it because I always have my camera set to Eye Sensor.  I did try and navigate the menu once in the EVF, but it was quite silly.  I do like how the Pro1 can be configured so that all three give you different information while shooting.  Anytime I'm hitting the menu button though I'm already pulling my face away from the camera to see the LCD.

 

I just played with both Pro1 and XT-1 and the XT-1 will not display the menu on the LCD when on EVF only, but the Pro1 will display the menu on the LCD when on OVF/EVF only.  That's pretty cool actually.  When I got my Pro1 I just set it up as close to my XT-1 as I could and kept it on Eye Sensor.  Is there any reason why you all don't prefer to work in Eye Sensor Mode?

[Paul Crespel]

Is there any reason why you all don't prefer to work in Eye Sensor Mode?

Eye sensor mode is not immediate enough, there's a lag while one shuts down and the other opens..... even half a second is too much lag for me, I lose shots.

 

Eye sensor mode means the LCD is permanently lit up while I don't have my eye at the viewfinder, which means that in low light I am a walking lighthouse, and there's no possibility of discretion.

 

I go out for a long day with 8 spare batteries, I would need to double that if my camera were permanently on with the LCD awake.

 

Also, people never had to use eye sensor mode on any camera before, including Fuji.... so why do they have to start now, when, as you said, it worked great on the XP1 (and also the X100 and the X100S).

 

I have never taken a shot using the LCD as a viewfinder. I have spent 40 years using a viewfinder, and like others of my age, I just don't want to change.... and why should I, when it all worked great until recently

 

I did try eye sensor mode, about 5 years or so ago with the original X100, and I really didn't like it, which was fine, because for 5 years of Fujis I've never needed to use it, as all options were catered for..... but now they are not.

[CRAusmus]

I do understand what you're saying.  It doesn't seem very efficient, both battery wise and workflow wise, to have the OVF switch to EVF when you hit the menu button while in EVF/OVF Mode.  Just seems like it's a couple lines of code to me really (however I'm not a coder) so I don't really understand why they removed it.  It almost seems as though folks would have had to complain about this with the X100s for it to be changed going forward.

 

I typically have my camera on a strap when I'm not shooting so my chest or side trips the sensor preventing the LCD from turning on.  If I'm in a spot where I'm trying to be inconspicuous I will sometimes hold my thumb over the sensor too when I have my camera on a wrist strap.  Many times I do this to conserve battery life though too.  I do however use the LCD quite a bit for checking settings, and the like when the lighting changes though..