Fuji lens prices

[John W]

Hi,

 

I've been thinking about building a Fuji kit with an X-Pro2 and two or three prime lenses. A couple of months ago I wrote down the prices of some lenses that were of interest to me. Today I got an email from a retailer saying the X-Pro2 and Fuji lenses were on sale for Cyber Monday. But when I compared the sale prices of the lenses, they were the exact same as I had written down a couple of months ago. (i.e., $649 for the 23mm f/1.4; $799 for the 56mm f/1.2).

 

So my question is whether these are really "Cyber Monday" prices, or if the lenses are always or frequently sold at these discounted prices. What's the deal with that, and is this an especially good time to buy X series lenses?

 

[milandro]

a lot of offers are just re-fried hot air, however the exchange rate has been creating some havoc in the marketplace. Prices are the lowest on the South East Asian markets but then if I import to Europe I get VAT and handling through customs and the exercise is no longer worth the effort after all of that.

[Doug Pardee]

I'm assuming you're in the US, since you seem to be quoting US dollars.

 

Those are the sale prices. I doubt they're "Cyber Monday" prices, just general Fujifilm sale prices. I get the impression that Fujifilm doesn't allow retailer discounts. Regular prices are $899 for the 23mm and $999 for the 56mm. See this page on the FujiRumors site for a list of items in the current US Fujifilm sale.

 

Fujifilm runs sales a number of times a year -- to the point that nobody "in the know" buys Fuji equipment at full price if they can stand to wait a few months. It's quite possible that you happened to write down the prices during an earlier sale.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Doug Pardee

[John W]

Thanks for the info guys.  Yes, I'm in the US, sorry to forget we are an international community and not to include that information.

 

I imagine Doug is correct, that I happened to write down the prices during an earlier sale.  I called a retailer today and was told the current sale prices are good through December 24.

 

The U.S. sale prices are very appealing, certainly compared to Nikon lens prices (what I currently shoot).

Edited November 29, 2016 by John W

[milandro]

as noted above, prices in Asia are often much better. American are hardly ever charged anything when importing from abroad (unless you are importing as business to business).

 

In EU there is an uncanny uniformity among all local Fuji. For some reason that my mind refuses to not call an agreement with all the shops, prices are , generally, throughout the EU, everywhere the same.

 

They certainly are in the NL and affect all the shop simultaneously. So we don’t have the luxury to chose among shops choosing a different price and importing really comes at a premium.

 

Check the prices in Hong Kong, Singapore, Burma, Thailand, and buy with confidence using the paypal protection ( they get you the money back should you not receive the item)

[John W]

 

In EU there is an uncanny uniformity among all local Fuji. For some reason that my mind refuses to not call an agreement with all the shops, prices are , generally, throughout the EU, everywhere the same.

 

They certainly are in the NL and affect all the shop simultaneously. So we don’t have the luxury to chose among shops choosing a different price and importing really comes at a premium.

 

 

 

All of the prices for bodies and lenses are identical in the U.S. as well.  Local shops, Amazon, B&H, Adorama -- every price is exactly the same.  I believe the manufacturer is allowed to contractually oblige retailers to agree to a "Minimum Advertised Price" (MAP) in the U.S., but can't actually prevent a shop from selling to you at below that if you were to find one willing to negotiate.

 

Some retailers get around this by offering freebies included with the product (i.e. a lens filter, or an inexpensive tripod with a camera) -- this doesn't violate the MAP agreement but in essence lowers the profit margin on the camera for the retailer in order to move more units.

Edited November 29, 2016 by John W

[milandro]

well, that’s not the precise case in the NL, we don’t have a minimum advertised price and the law specifically prohibits companies throughout the whole of the EU, to all agree on one price and stick to it.

 

 

I’ve tried to negotiate when buying severa cameras and lenses and every single time stumbled upon this:

 

Years ago when I bought the bulk of my equipment I asked a shop why would I buy from them if there were at least 4 other shops in Amsterdam alone (and the rest of the country) which sold the same lens ant the exact same price. They first answered “ because of our service!” , I objected that all shops gave the same service except the shops on line (which also have the exact same price although their overhead is way lower than a physical shop).

 

Privately, in a conversation, a sales person of a shop in Amsterdam admitted that they couldn’t even sweeten the deal with a free filter or something like that because, and I quote: “ There have been agreements made among all the shops and the Dutch Fuji”.

 

Now this is precisely what the law forbids, the creation of a cartel. If proven (difficult) it would result into a legal action by out anti-cartel control authority: NMa, which would punish this with very serious fines. If this would be proven to be on an European scale then the EU Anti-trust watchdog would intervene in a similar way and so on.

Edited November 29, 2016 by milandro

[John W]

I think strictly speaking U.S. companies are also forbidden to agree to a "price", but they are allowed to agree to an "advertised price".  A semantic distinction that in most cases amounts of an agreed-upon price, the difference being the manufacturer can't prevent (or probably even monitor) the actual selling price.  

 

I have had a few occasions where to get warranty support I had to send a copy of a receipt on items I had bought below MAP and was nervous that either I or the retailer would catch flack over the low price on the receipt but I have never heard feedback on it.  Nevertheless it's an interesting thing that some manufacturers, in demanding a copy of the receipt, are able to spy on what certain retailers are selling their products for.

Edited November 29, 2016 by John W

[Doug Pardee]

I think strictly speaking U.S. companies are also forbidden to agree to a "price"

 

The pricing is almost certainly set by Fujifilm, not by a collusion between retailers. In the US, since June 28, 2007, manufacturers are allowed to set minimum retail prices for their products. (Certain specific instances might be found to be anti-competitive, but that would require taking the matter to court to prove.)

 

A somewhat technical discussion of the matter can be found here:

http://www.theantitrustattorney.com/2014/10/02/classic-antitrust-cases-leegin-resale-price-maintenance-agreements/

[John W]

The pricing is almost certainly set by Fujifilm, not by a collusion between retailers. In the US, since June 28, 2007, manufacturers are allowed to set minimum retail prices for their products. (Certain specific instances might be found to be anti-competitive, but that would require taking the matter to court to prove.)

 

A somewhat technical discussion of the matter can be found here:

http://www.theantitrustattorney.com/2014/10/02/classic-antitrust-cases-leegin-resale-price-maintenance-agreements/

 

 

I never suggested that retailers were colluding, which would be flagrantly illegal.  The question is whether retailers can agree with *manufacturers* on a minimum price.

 

The linked article doesn't say that minimum retail price agreements are legal... just that they *can* be legal in certain circumstances.  E.g., it might be legal for Fujifilm to have minimum retail price agreements (because they do not have a dominant marketshare) while being illegal for Canon or Nikon to (as the converse is true).

 

Of more practical consideration, the fact that, according to that article, some states like California continue to outlaw minimum retail price agreements of all kinds would inevitably result in online retailers in only those states selling large quantities of such items at lower prices -- which would in turn harm the retailers located in states that allowed minimum retail prices.  

 

In my experience, you can regularly purchase products below the (legal everywhere in the U.S., it appears) Minimum Advertised Price if you are inclined to negotiate or shop around.  Therefore, I suspect most manufacturers are using MAP agreements, not MRP agreements, in the U.S.

 

Here is another article addressing the issue of MAP vs. actual sale price.  As the article points out, in some instances in online shops you will see the following in place of a selling price:  "Add item to cart to see price."  Upon adding the item to your cart you will then see it at a price lower than the MAP.  This would be a contractual violation of a MRP but not of an MAP since the shopping cart is not "advertising".

 

https://www.sba.gov/blogs/how-minimum-advertised-pricing-impacts-your-retail-or-online-stores-marketing-efforts

Edited November 29, 2016 by John W

[milandro]

In the EU no brand can set the minimum price, legally, and if all the shops sell at the exact same price can anyone explain how would the “ market forces “ operate?

 

Not 1 cent difference. ( the cashback applies anywhere, it’s not the shop but Fuji directly)

 

https://www.cameranu.nl/nl/search?sort=relevance&q=fuji+60mm

 

http://www.kamera-express.nl/product/12177654/fujifilm-xf-60mm-f-2-4-r-macro-fujinon-eqv-91mm/

 

http://www.cameraland.nl/objectief/xf-60-2-4-r-macro/

Edited November 29, 2016 by milandro

[John W]

In the EU no brand can set the minimum price, legally, and if all the shops sell at the exact same price can anyone explain how would the “ market forces “ operate?

 

Not 1 cent difference.

 

 

 

"Everybody knows the dice are loaded."  -- Leonard Cohen

[milandro]

everybody knows the fight is fixed 

[johant]

everybody knows the fight is fixed

I contacted the "Consumentenbond" on this price fixing a few months ago ... never heard anything back. I guess Fujifilm or the dealers use a legal loophole.

 

I bought my latest Fujifilm gear from outside the EU; best way to protest is with your wallet.