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Fujifilm X-H1 Rumors


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I sincerely hope this rumour is true.

 

The one thing that has been lacking from the Fuji system (for me) is IBIS and I am truly delighted that this may soon be rectified.

 

Fuji seems to be the one manufacturer who is really working with photographers rather than merely pursuing "in house" ideas.

 

Long live Fuji!

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This probably has a lot more todo with future Video features than photography, maybe the new Super X mount camera that was rumoured.

 

In photography IBIS has limited usefulness (same as OIS on <100mm lens), being able to hand hold a shot at 1/4 second using a 35mm lens is of little use unless your subject is stationary

You may not have camera shake but you replace that with motion blur.

 

I honestly can't think of a usage for IBIS for photography, that the 16-50, 18-55, or 18-135 lens can not do with their OIS

Architecture or landscape shots at night without a tripod, since you are using F8/11/16/22 to get the required DOF all those can be done with lens with OIS that are available now.

 

Don't get me wrong for handheld video it will be great, but for photography I can not see the point other than a tick box item

Edited by Tikcus
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It's hard to judge now if this is good or bad.

 

Maybe they'll stick it only on X-T3 which is already more video oriented than X-PRO, and that would be ok I suppose.

 

But if they put it on X-PRO3 and X-E3, along with touch flippable screen, automatic modes with kitten recognition, and all this crap and points of failure, they are at risk with losing the public that made them become what they are now : actual photographers (not gear-heads) interrested in no-non-sense, robusts, photography cameras, not in sony's technology demonstration/proof of concept without a soul and so many menus and options by the time you have read the manual I've shot thousands of photos with my x-e1...

 

We are getting everyday further from the XPRO-1's spirit and I find it regrettable. Otoh, one can still buy a new one for cheap so... 

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In photography IBIS has limited usefulness (same as OIS on <100mm lens), being able to hand hold a shot at 1/4 second using a 35mm lens is of little use unless your subject is stationary

You may not have camera shake but you replace that with motion blur.

 

I honestly can't think of a usage for IBIS for photography, ... I can not see the point other than a tick box item

 

I'd have to take issue with this. Almost any handheld photography would benefit from some form of stabilisation, particularly in low light situations. This is not my opinion, it is my experience. I do quite a lot of theatre, concert and candid photography and this is where IBIS is useful. Yes, I know it won't stop subject movement blur and yes I know that architectural or landscape photographers won't have much use for it. I know that some simply don't want IBIS, but for those of us who do low light, hand held photography, using prime lenses, it is essential.

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I'd have to take issue with this. Almost any handheld photography would benefit from some form of stabilisation, particularly in low light situations. This is not my opinion, it is my experience. I do quite a lot of theatre, concert and candid photography and this is where IBIS is useful. Yes, I know it won't stop subject movement blur and yes I know that architectural or landscape photographers won't have much use for it. I know that some simply don't want IBIS, but for those of us who do low light, hand held photography, using prime lenses, it is essential.

 

if you shoot concerts or acts on stage at less than 1/125s I'd imagine the motion blur is present on almost every photo, if that is the look you're going for that's your artist interpretation.

When i shoot events I'd much rather have a usable high ISO, than be able to slow the shutter speed, as I generally do not want motion blur on the acts i'm photographing. (the exception being if I want to show movement)

 

All IBIS or OIS does is allow you to use a slower shutter speed, on long lenses > 100mm it is an advantage being able to use a shutter speed of 1/60 seconds without camera shake.

 

But shooting a 50mm/35mm lens (or wider) it makes no difference, as less than 1/60s motion blur will appear on anything that moves, and shooting a 35mm lens at 1/60s or faster there is no camera shake.

 

I also do plenty of candid street photography, again never missed a shot because of no ibis, as I'd never be using a shutter speed so slow camera shake became an issue before motion blur did

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if you shoot concerts or acts on stage at less than 1/125s I'd imagine the motion blur is present on almost every photo, if that is the look you're going for that's your artist interpretation.

When i shoot events I'd much rather have a usable high ISO, than be able to slow the shutter speed, as I generally do not want motion blur on the acts i'm photographing. (the exception being if I want to show movement)

 

All IBIS or OIS does is allow you to use a slower shutter speed, on long lenses > 100mm it is an advantage being able to use a shutter speed of 1/60 seconds without camera shake.

 

But shooting a 50mm/35mm lens (or wider) it makes no difference, as less than 1/60s motion blur will appear on anything that moves, and shooting a 35mm lens at 1/60s or faster there is no camera shake.

 

I also do plenty of candid street photography, again never missed a shot because of no ibis, as I'd never be using a shutter speed so slow camera shake became an issue before motion blur did

 

You can imagine so, but in my experience there are about a 50/50 split between shots that need IBIS and those that need a shutter speed of 1/125s or faster to capture. Perhaps I operate in lower light levels than most, who knows? No-one really wants motion blur unless it's an artistic choice, certainly not my choice.

Where IBIS gives an real advantage is with prime lenses, especially the 90mm. I know I can set the camera to something like 1/125s at f2 with auto ISO and I'll get a shot, but sometimes it's simply better not to use higher ISO settings and this is where IBIS helps.

What I really can't understand is why anyone would not want the option of IBIS as it can be switched off if not wanted, but there may come a day when even the most ardent skeptic chooses to use it and benefits accordingly.

As to the worry about wear and tear, I have several Sony cameras, an Olympus and previously had Konica-Minolta cameras and it never seemed to be an issue. 

Edited by Woodworth
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A software-based IBIS is certainly possible. For video, this is "old" technology where a processor looks for edges (high luminance gradients) and ties to pixel-shift from one frame to the next to keep low-motion areas of the picture overlapping. To apply this technique in a photograph, the camera would "merely" have to snoop images before and after the shot, do a similar process as with video, and re-compose the image.

 

There are difficulties, though, having to do with exposure time. The sensor exposure time is a limiting factor because, if the image is blurred during exposure, there is no good way to un-blur it. Sensor hardware may be able to drive past this limit by taking multiple, fractional exposures, processing the edge detection and alignment, then summing them for a properly-exposed image. This would be an image processing function for a very high speed electronic shutter.

 

Another method might be to snoop live images and, after the shutter button is pressed, wait for when the focus area shows high luminance gradients and discard undesired previous images. The camera's processor might not need to examine image captures across the whole sensor if the region of interest were in the center or found through face-detection. Introducing a short (but varying) delay in image capture from when the button is pushed might be acceptable if the delay is tolerably short. Again, this requires a very fast sensor, processor, and everything in between.

 

To make IS work on a body/lens without it, having a fast, sharp lens helps to ensure the sensor gets enough photons, quickly enough, for the two methods mentioned above.

 

None of the non-mechanical IBIS methods I know of do not rely on a very fast sensor and software to simulate mechanical IBIS or lens-based OIS. Fujifilm could be relying on a sensor maker to make a software solution viable. If Sony does IBIS on a camera without mechanical motion compensation, then Fujifilm should be able to get that, too, though I suspect Fujifilm will be doing their own software.

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What I really can't understand is why anyone would not want the option of IBIS as it can be switched off if not wanted, but there may come a day when even the most ardent skeptic chooses to use it and benefits accordingly.

As to the worry about wear and tear, I have several Sony cameras, an Olympus and previously had Konica-Minolta cameras and it never seemed to be an issue. 

 

Would be curious to know the actual failure rate of the ibis in those cameras. So far, the anecdotal evidence seems to be that it's quite low; but that still leaves the possibility of it breaking down earlier than the other components as the cameras age. (any info on the older cameras with this feature?)

 

There is, of course, the battery usage, cost and size/weight argument, but I'd like to see more info on what the increases would actually be when implemented.

Edited by Florian
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A thought occurred to me when thinking about camera wear due to IBIS, just how long do we keep cameras these days anyway? I have an X-E1 which I suppose is almost five years old but despite it functioning perfectly, the X-E1 is now selling for as little as £150 (used) in the UK and maybe even cheaper. It is probably really "long in the tooth" as far as most are concerned, elderly and not taken seriously. Sad really. I think it's still a great little camera and I will continue with it for as long as it works.

 

I would imagine that most people keep a camera for no more than three years as the lure of a newer model grows stronger as each new model is introduced. I can't imagine IBIS killing a camera within three years, or even within 5 years so whether it shortens a camera's operational life is probably academic for most people.

 

As to battery life, yes I'm sure it will empty a battery faster. So I keep plenty of spare batteries, solved!

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  • 2 weeks later...

...the X-E1 is now selling for as little as £150 (used) in the UK and maybe even cheaper. It is probably really "long in the tooth" as far as most are concerned, elderly and not taken seriously...

 

Wow, hadn't realised they have gotten that cheap. Mightily tempting to get one as a dedicated manual focus camera next to my good old x-pro1...

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  • 2 weeks later...

I don't want IBIS. From what I hear, it can actually slightly reduce sharpness and resolution in a regular photo. By regular, I mean a situation or shutter speed where you wouldn't be concerned with camera shake. 

Like OIS in our present lenses, it can be toggled off if not desired. Use it as needed.

 

We know that Fuji did not think it mature enough technology to adapt it over the past half-dozen years. However, digital technology is always advancing and finally, a solution is being reached that will meet Fuji's standards. We can not judge in advance what we do not know, based upon the products of other camera manufacturers. We also have no idea when Fuji will be ready to actually market a camera with IBIS. However, I expect when they do, it will be a full generation ahead of what exists at the moment.

Edited by Larry Bolch
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A small problem of course, is that the Fujifilm managers have been very outspoken on this topic, and probably for a good reason.

Quoting TAKASHI UENO (Fujifilm senior product planner, Feb. 2016):


"The diameter of our mount was designed for the image circle without IBIS. It means the amount of light at the corners is reduced when the sensor is shifted. We could correct it digitally, but we don’t want to do it: we don’t want to compromise our image quality. [...] Our highest priority is always image quality. We hope you agree!"

 

Given that the laws of physics have not changed ... do they plan to compromise image quality after all? I do not agree then.

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A small problem of course, is that the Fujifilm managers have been very outspoken on this topic, and probably for a good reason.

 

Quoting TAKASHI UENO (Fujifilm senior product planner, Feb. 2016):

"The diameter of our mount was designed for the image circle without IBIS. It means the amount of light at the corners is reduced when the sensor is shifted. We could correct it digitally, but we don’t want to do it: we don’t want to compromise our image quality. [...] Our highest priority is always image quality. We hope you agree!"

 

Given that the laws of physics have not changed ... do they plan to compromise image quality after all? I do not agree then.

 

While physics is unchanging, technology is not. Using a 60mm f/2.4 on the first X-Pro1 camera required considerable patience. Focusing a contemporary lens on an X-T2 almost matches dSLR auto-focus performance. It is nearly seven years since the X-100 was first announced and in those few years, Fuji has created an impressive system. Processing power has greatly increased as has the sophistication of the firmware. This is clearly illustrated in the performance of contemporary models.

 

And yes, clearly image quality has been Fuji's priority and we have yet to see how they can implement IBIS without compromise. The camera knows what lens is mounted and by the time IBIS is actually on the market, it may well be possible to match the extent of movement to the image circle's requirements. While they were not in favour of software correction back then, acceptable solutions may now be in the works. For adapted lenses, profiles can be applied during processing. ACR has profiles for the Samyang lenses on Fuji cameras for example.

 

All we know is that Fuji is working on IBIS. We have no idea on time span. They know what technology is being developed by their parts-suppliers and can begin planning even if the solutions are still a couple of years away.

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An another camera maker was forced to create a new mechanical shutter with reduced shock for its new camera model with IBIS.

Curiously, that new camera is targeted to low segment of system cameras.

I mean, the implementing of IBIS is not based only on restrictions of bayonet design or associated electronics,

but can need some other important changes, and they are partially invisible for end user.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

I've never used a camera with IBIS before. For those who have, or who know more about it, I wonder what is realistically achievable with the technology? For example, with my 35mm f2, I'll usually set shutter speed to a minimum of 50 or 60 shooting handheld in low light, to be safe. I know this is totally speculative, but how low could I hope to set that with IBIS? 

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