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Has Steve Huff "Lost It"?

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I wouldn't say that any of that is even remotely a deal breaker. They're minor niggles that won't come close to affecting 90% of the people who use the camera.

 

And I would trade down to 15fps in my viewfinder if it meant no blackout during burst shooting. Blackout is a dealbreaker. 60fps is not. 

 

1/32000 shutter speed is a fringe case in the first place, so having to use manual or shutter priority to get it isn't meaningful. 

 

The f/11 thing might be a problem, but I don't really understand what they're saying about it. That you can't use f/16 and also track focus? That doesn't seem possible, but I guess I could be wrong. If that's the case, I can see that being an issue, though most sports tracking happens much wider than f/11. 

 

I'm not saying any of this is bad, or a complete deal breaker;  but you get guys like this Huff fella and they go balls out on a particular brand.  One thing I do have absolute working knowledge of is the HORRIBLE, Sony service.  If you've ever dealt with Nikon (Melville NY) office, and you though that was bad, oh  no... You've seen nothing like Sony.  This is ONE huge reason I try to avoid everything Sony whenever I can.

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I think :

1. Sony a9 specs is a real "wow"

2. Some people choose camera majorly based on spec, some are not

3. SteveHuff can write anything he wants on his site, i can choose whatever i want to read on any site

4. I used to read steve site regularly, but not anymore. I read the guest post, rarely read steves review. I think he is a leica n sony fanboy, and a bit of oly too

That said I'll stick to my fujis and enjoy it

 

Btw, i was a sony dslr user, back then...

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Steve is always very enthusiastic about whatever his new favorite thing is. I find that somewhat charming -- it makes me nostalgic for when I was younger and always hopeful that the next new piece of gear would make my photos more significant. As long as I don't conflate "enthusiasm" with "value," I can still enjoy reading his site.

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It's the same as it's always been. A camera company comes up with a pro model that has features not found in regular models. More speed, tougher body etc. Does the fact that a Nikon D5 has features a D7200 doesn't mean that everyone should buy a D5 instead of a D7200? No. Should we ditch our Fujis because Sony has something that's better in a lot of ways? No. If we want an expensive camera with the features Sony has and can afford the Sony kit, should we buy a Fuji anyway? No.

 

These cameras are not really each other's competition and comparing them isn't any more productive that getting into a Canon vs. Nikon flame war. It's just a bunch of talk.

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Perhaps the new Sony should be compared to the GFX50 and not the XT2? If price and sensor are irrelevant, why not?

 

I'm impressed with tbe performance of the A7II, so the a9 will impress me more, but I'm just not keen on the handling of any Sony mirrorless bodies, so I can save some cash and stick with Fuji.

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i still dont get how steve huff compares aps-c vs full frame and newer sensor? can he wait until the new fuji camera comes out with that sensor? its the processor that needs to be talk about. seems like alot of people doesnt know about processors. ofcourse sony will beat fuji cause they are the one who makes the technology and will up anyone buying there products.

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I don't get the OP, I love Fuji but all of what Steve said is just true facts... A9 is the top-of-the-line full-frame camera now, the X-T2 is 1/3rd of the price and can't really compete with it. With that price tag, it's only aiming professionals, and only a smaller portion of them. While the X-T2 is still within range of enthusiasts.

As for the reason of the high price, I guess it's the price of being an early adopter and having the latest and greatest. That allows people to have a slight edge over the competition, but they have to pay for it.

I am primarily using the electronic shutter to take pictures, so I wouldn't mind having the newer version with no limitations over the mechanical one. I'm sure it will come to the Fuji system as well in due time.

I still like the X-T2 very much though, for the usability and the rangefinder design.

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I am a canon 1dx ii shooter, Sony A7 and Fuji X series shooter. 

I've also had the priviledge of shooting the A9 at Sony launch - I wrote this feedback on Sony alpha forums shortly after I had a chance to play with A9 for a bit :
https://www.talkemount.com/threads/hands-on-with-the-a9-a-disappointment-for-me.16912/

In summary - I do feel that the A9 is massively overhyped. It is a great camera however there are many tasks for which I feel an XT2 is the superior camera and vice versa there are some tasks where I feel the A9 is the better camera.

 

Some things to keep in mind when perusing the spec sheets....

- A9 in any form of continuous raw, bracketing, HDR etc... falls back to a 12bit read out (note the difference between read out and file format - i'm not talking about compressed 11+7 file format).  This is the same with the a99ii, a7rii, a6500, etc....  Sensor measurements on DXO typically are found based off of single shot mechanical 14bit read out. It appears that this is a design decision to prioritize FPS over maintaining quality. 

- Quality loss in 12bit mechanical continuous mode vs 12bit electronic shutter continuous mode is an unknown quantity on this camera right now. What we do know already from the a7rii and Jim Kasson's measurements of existing Sony bodies is that there is a qualitative loss in noise and dynamic range going from mechanical shutter to electronic shutter (outside of the 14 bit to 12 bit loss). Whether that is significant for your purposes, noticeable or not is a subjective perspective and each to their own. Nevertheless it's good to be aware that electronic shutter (same with XT2) does come with a performance penalty, however from comments in Jim Kassons thread on dpreview it appears that Fuji does not play with the read out bitrate to achieve their continuous/bracketed speeds. 14bit all the way through. Fuji, Canon, Nikon all continue to read out at 14bits in continuous. 
 

Why do I mention this? The A9 specifications look good but need the background context of how they are achieved to really give an apples to apples comparison with pre-existing workhorses. Overall a camera is more than the sum of its individual specifications.
Case in point: in mechanical shutter mode the a9 the continuous framerate is the same as it's older brother (the a7ii ) and works at a respectable (for my needs anyway) 5fps.
Mechanical shutter mode on the a9 is the only mode that guarantees no banding in phosphorous lighting conditions and no jello effect with fast moving panning subjects. The electronic shutter mode on the a9 does handle panning subjects somewhat better than the electronic shutter mode on an XT2 in my brief experience but that difference isn't huge. BUT - the a9 electronic shutter mode does not eliminate the problem entirely so regardless of how improved it is,  read out rates are not fast enough yet to achieve banding free and no jello. Maybe the solution is for Sony to drop the bit rate further to achieve faster readout in the next generation?
If you need to use fast flash sync, cannot tolerate any potential banding in phosphorous artificial lighting, no tolerance for jello - mechanical shutter is still the name of the game regardless of camera brand preference.
In the context of mechanical shutter capability, the 11 FPS (continuous) with boost grip on an XT2 with 14bit read out (or the 11fps of the a6500 in 12bit read out) will in theory at least be a more realistic body if you shoot in these types of conditions. Pragmatically though, if you are considering spending 6k on an a9 then you probably would be better served again with a D500, D5 or 1dxii with fast mechanical shutter in my opinion. If the purpose of the camera is for weddings and situations where you CAN use the electronic shutter, then the A9 is a great camera but there are equally capable cameras in my opinion for less money - you can buy two D750's + change for the price of one A9. You can get 3 XT2's etc... 

If you click through to the link I mentioned earlier you will see a video that I shared immediately of my first hands on experience with mechanical shutter. A 1dx or D5 will give a superior experience in such high speed mechanical modes. I confirmed with Chris and Jordan during todays TCS live show the slideshow effect in mechanical with their sample too. Also confirmed today with Chris and Jordan is the 12bit and phosphorous lighting limitations.

My personal take away is that the A9 is a great camera - heck there are LOTS of great cameras available. Just do your homework before abandoning any ship or declaring X better than Y. You may find that the compromises the A9 makes do not work for your shooting style.

Just my 0.02
 

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The Sony specs look good, but the camera with good glass is still big compared to the X-T2. I'm sticking with Fuji. Bought and paid for.

 

Perhaps the GFX next?

 

Bud

 

www.budjames.photography

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Yesterday I was shopping in Chengdu China with my wife and walked into a giant camera store - much to my surprise there was a A9 demo event. Despite not knowing anything being said from the Sony rep, everyone in the audience, or even being able to decipher the menus - it was awesome. The body improvements make it really feel good, more chunk in the grip, better control layout - and jeezus its fast. 20fps is not my thing, but the A9 is a beast. AF and tracking are next level for mirrorless - much better than anything I've seen from the EM1.2, A6500, A7rII or my twin XT2's.

 

Everyone in attendance shot stills, so when the rep reviewed images on a big 4k tv, I didn't see any video. If I had a spare card I would have shot some stills and tried to shoot video - they were letting people take away images. Very cool though as this was the first time I've seen a camera pre-release like this.

 

Funny side note - a guy was pairing the A9 with his phone to download images and he knocked over a cup of water sitting on the counter next to the camera and it splashed the A9 body and a a6500/18-110 cine lens combo sitting on the counter next to the A9. A shop staffer gave him major stink eye as he wiped water off the everything, but the weather sealing did its job, haha.

 

I'm traveling the world for a year with a XT2 kit after switching from the A7rII mainly because of the speed and lenses. If the lower models get many of the improvements sans the crazy FPS, I'll be really tempted to head back to Sony. They've fixed everything I hated about my A7rII. 

Edited by Trek of Joy

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I'll wait until the camera is released and real world experiences are (pun) developed.  The pole vault video is rumored to be set up and staged with high powered LEDs that won't create banding/rolling shutter.  I won't believe much of either argument until the camera is released to the world.

 

As for any person that runs a site, they are free to spill whatever nonsense they choose.  The real people that have lost it, are the ones that will take one single person's internet statements as fact and base decisions on how to spend their money purely on that.

 

It's great camera, overkill for the masses and not for me, but someone will be happy with it....when the matching level of glass comes out too.

 

Here is Ken's (Angry Photographer) video on the "staged" A9 demo, make your own judgements:

 

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As you go up the ladder in terms of features and expense, your returns diminish while your costs increase. Do you believe a 1Dx is three times as good as a 5Dmk3? Do you believe that a Ferrari is 10 times as good as a Honda Civic? I don't, but they'll sell less of them, to people who absolutely need (or absolutely want) the few improvements that it provides, and the a9 is the same. 

 

The a9 isn't competing against the X-T2, it's competing against the 1Dx, and the D5. 

 

It won't be competing against the 1Dx and D5 unless it has big, fast glass: 300 and 400mm f/2.8, 500/f.4, 600/f5, etc *and* a level of support like Canon provides at major events. I was shooting at a MotoGP years ago at Philip Island, and the Canon support team there had a replacement battery closure latch....which they replaced for free, of course. They also let me check out a 500/f4 for an afternoon. 

Edited by Puma Cat

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Another point for consideration. I shot with my X-T2 for my last pro race for the year, and 11FPS was WAY more than enough frame rate to my meet needs. In point of fact, I shot about 3x more frames that I usually do with my Canon; and had to discard 2/3 of the images, not because they were soft, but because I don't need 10 shots of a car apexing a corner. Even with the 10+ FPS that current pro DSLR bodies provide, the fact of the matter is, most sports pros don't shoot that way at all; they shoot like a Navy Seal for the most part, 2-3 frames per subject/per shot, not 8 or 10 or 14. In the vast majority of situations, they only need one shot of an athlete, a racehorse, a race car doing something at any given instant, not 20. Their photo editor only needs one, too. They don't have to, and don't want to, shoot "spray and pray" style. I can see how amateurs need this approach to get a "keeper" but all they are doing is ending up with way more frames needed that have to culled and stored, and a lot more shutter actuations necessary to get the shot. 

 

On the whole, it all adds up to a LOT more images than necessary and a LOT more actuations on the shutter. This doesn't get talked about much, but the shutter durability is one of the top requirements for a professional using pro bodes. 

Edited by Puma Cat

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Yes, I know there is excitement over the new a9 camera from Sony.  Seems like a worthy competitor to the Fuji X-T2, however, the price seems extreme at this point at $4,500 or almost 3x the X-T2.

 

So, I am wondering what it is about the camera that makes it worth so much?!?  I mean no one has the camera as of yet for thorough testing and comparison.

 

Here is what Steve responded:

 

"This electronic shutter has no limitations like the Fuji or even older Sony’s. It is what I would use all the time in fact. Also, the Xt2 is not even close to this A9 in any way from IQ, to Speed, to Video to well, anything. Only thing the Fuji has over this is the Fuji look if that is your pref. This camera is like nothing else out there. It truly is."

 

Really?!?

 

I used to go to this site because of the in-depth analysis of cameras, lenses, etc.  Seems Steve has "Gone Over to the Dark Side" and become nothing more than a "fan-boy" for both Sony and Leica.  I really wish this weren't rue as I liked his more conversational tone and analysis based in real-world usage.

 

Oh well, another one bites the dust of useless rhetoric backed up by pure emotion as opposed to professionalism.

Yup. I stopped reading his blog several months ago when I realized he had slipped over to "the Dark Side." Something has changed about his blog. And not for the better.

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The Fuji has nothing over the Sony but looks? It has a $3000 lower price tag! And if you want a small kit, which is what mirrorless is good for anyway, it has more small lenses available at lower cost. Having a better spec is great, and the Sony does have a better spec, but (IMO, and this is where people will disagree) having $3000 in my bank account and smaller size is better.

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Look, personally I like Steve.  I think he writes well and is really enthusiastic about whatever he is shooting.

 

What bothers me is that there has become NO balance in his site and/or reviews.  There is no such thing as the PERFECT camera.  I shoot with the Leican M9, Fuji GFX and Fuji X-T2 - each is different and I use them for different things.  While 20fps is impressive - so is an 8k video camera shooting 33mpixel images either 30 or 60fps!

 

All I ask is that the reviewers should stop and think - wait a few days before writing your review.  Think about the camera and how people spend their money and how they shoot.  Think about what is "bad" about a camera and what could be improved.  In other words - BALANCE!

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As I've said elsewhere in other posts, you have to appreciate the fact that Sony keeps pushing forward. Sony really started the mirrorless craze as predicted by Trey Ratcliff years ago and now they've eliminated the shutter. That's the big news here. It's now an all digital camera. No moving parts. And they will keep refining until they make it damn near perfect. To get to this point, they also had to innovate in other areas like their sensor technology. And don't forget, it's not just a stills camera, it also upped the ante in video as well. Full 4K pixel readout across the entire full frame. They can now do 1080p at 120fps at 100mbit. That's huge for catching fast action but it makes perfect sense being that the camera is geared towards sports/fast action. Yeah, their menu system might suck and they don't have the superior manual controls of Fuji but they could if they wanted to. That's easy stuff. And this is why I continue to be vocal about Fuji. We have to face facts as Fuji fans. Fuji cannot afford one fuckup. Not one. One major misstep and they will go down faster than the damn Titanic. Two ongoing issues with Fuji that defy logic and common sense is the lack of support within Adobe LR/PS and their lack of flash support. These same two issues are not shared by Sony. But it shouldn't surprise anyone...companies gravitate towards those who innovate. It's business plain and simple. As of right now, Fuji does NOT have the professional fan base of Sony or Canonikon. And if you're being honest with yourself...why? The lack of flash support is maddening. Sure, Fuji just released the EF-X500 for $449 but for $100 more, you can get the Flashpoint Xplor 600 which is one of the hottest lights out on the market yet we are stilll waiting for Godox to release the R2 controller for Fuji while Sony users have been enjoying it for at least a year. Have you ever heard the saying that time is money? Lost time is lost money as well folks. That is the reality we are faced with as Fuji fans. So I applaud you for your patience. I hope that Fuji can speed up development of their next line of flagships to catch up to Sony and finally realize that to be successful they have to be more proactive in system integration. A camera is only one part of a larger equation. While Sony might have shitty ergonomics and shitty menus, they hit it out of the park in the areas that matter most in image creation.

 

Now I fully expect most of you to rail against me for bringing up such blasphemy but the facts are there right in front of you. What I'll remind you again is this...you paid Fuji your hard earned money for their products. IMO, you have paid for the privilege to expect more from Fuji and I urge you to be more vocal about it. You only live once and time does not stand still.

 

As for Steve Huff, he's not my cup of tea but unfortunately, I think he's just rubbing it in. What makes it more frustrating is that he's got some facts on his side.

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Sony keeps pushing forward. I'It's now an all digital camera. No moving parts. And they will keep refining until they make it damn near perfect...

 

And I don't give a shit...

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As I've said elsewhere in other posts, you have to appreciate the fact that Sony keeps pushing forward. Sony really started the mirrorless craze as predicted by Trey Ratcliff years ago and now they've eliminated the shutter. That's the big news here. It's now an all digital camera. No moving parts. And they will keep refining until they make it damn near perfect. To get to this point, they also had to innovate in other areas like their sensor technology. And don't forget, it's not just a stills camera, it also upped the ante in video as well. Full 4K pixel readout across the entire full frame. They can now do 1080p at 120fps at 100mbit. That's huge for catching fast action but it makes perfect sense being that the camera is geared towards sports/fast action. Yeah, their menu system might suck and they don't have the superior manual controls of Fuji but they could if they wanted to. That's easy stuff. And this is why I continue to be vocal about Fuji. We have to face facts as Fuji fans. Fuji cannot afford one fuckup. Not one. One major misstep and they will go down faster than the damn Titanic. Two ongoing issues with Fuji that defy logic and common sense is the lack of support within Adobe LR/PS and their lack of flash support. These same two issues are not shared by Sony. But it shouldn't surprise anyone...companies gravitate towards those who innovate. It's business plain and simple. As of right now, Fuji does NOT have the professional fan base of Sony or Canonikon. And if you're being honest with yourself...why? The lack of flash support is maddening. Sure, Fuji just released the EF-X500 for $449 but for $100 more, you can get the Flashpoint Xplor 600 which is one of the hottest lights out on the market yet we are stilll waiting for Godox to release the R2 controller for Fuji while Sony users have been enjoying it for at least a year. Have you ever heard the saying that time is money? Lost time is lost money as well folks. That is the reality we are faced with as Fuji fans. So I applaud you for your patience. I hope that Fuji can speed up development of their next line of flagships to catch up to Sony and finally realize that to be successful they have to be more proactive in system integration. A camera is only one part of a larger equation. While Sony might have shitty ergonomics and shitty menus, they hit it out of the park in the areas that matter most in image creation.

 

Now I fully expect most of you to rail against me for bringing up such blasphemy but the facts are there right in front of you. What I'll remind you again is this...you paid Fuji your hard earned money for their products. IMO, you have paid for the privilege to expect more from Fuji and I urge you to be more vocal about it. You only live once and time does not stand still.

 

As for Steve Huff, he's not my cup of tea but unfortunately, I think he's just rubbing it in. What makes it more frustrating is that he's got some facts on his side.

 

Not everyone is against you. I agree with what you are saying.

 

You're on point  about the lack of flash support. I use the Cactus V6ii and it's still touch and go on a lot of occasions. For this reason alone, I've stop investing in Fujifilm, shoot for leisure and only certain paid work. Still rely on all my Canon for the latter.

 

About making mistakes that'll sink the titanic, the age of internet will make it sink even faster.

 

Like you, I hope Fujifilm innovates quickly. The initial awe is wearing out in most people. And yes, SONY is picking up a strong fan base. I've been following their progress since the R1XR.

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Not everyone is against you. I agree with what you are saying.

 

You're on point  about the lack of flash support. I use the Cactus V6ii and it's still touch and go on a lot of occasions. For this reason alone, I've stop investing in Fujifilm, shoot for leisure and only certain paid work. Still rely on all my Canon for the latter.

 

About making mistakes that'll sink the titanic, the age of internet will make it sink even faster.

 

Like you, I hope Fujifilm innovates quickly. The initial awe is wearing out in most people. And yes, SONY is picking up a strong fan base. I've been following their progress since the R1XR.

I want Fuji to win but to do that they have to be more aggressive. Japanese culture is very passive and deeply rooted in tradition. What I don't understand is how they can turn a blind eye towards Sony as if they aren't a threat. And it's not just Fuji, it's Canon and Nikon as well. It's like they all have deer in the headlights syndrome. They are just standing there waiting to get run the hell over. IMO, Fuji needs its own Steve Jobs.

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Guest Robert Lane

The Sony A9 looks to be a major competitor for anyone who shoots stills as a career or even advanced amateurs.  But the grass isn't always greener.

 

Steve is not totally correct when it comes to the video output from the A9; it does NOT shoot true 4K (The X-T2 does) and the frame-rates and other options are very limited.  Sony all-but admits (as well as DPreview) that the A9 is not optimized for video and concentrates it's feature set and technology around photography.

 

The other not-so-obvious thing about Sony is that they're not exactly easy to deal with when it comes to repair/warranty issues.  So yeah, it's a well-spec'd out camera, but good luck on getting it serviced in a timely manner when something fails.  Canon is king when it comes to service, no other camera company comes close to their resources.

 

And while this new-style of sensor is really cool and has great promise for speed and lack of "jello vision" it's still a Bayer sensor and from what I've seen does not have the natural color rendition the X-sensor does.

 

I literally just purchased an X-T2 yesterday and feel no pull of interest from the upcoming A9.  Future firmware updates are going to make X-cameras far better.

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I want Fuji to win but to do that they have to be more aggressive. Japanese culture is very passive and deeply rooted in tradition. What I don't understand is how they can turn a blind eye towards Sony as if they aren't a threat. And it's not just Fuji, it's Canon and Nikon as well. It's like they all have deer in the headlights syndrome. They are just standing there waiting to get run the hell over. IMO, Fuji needs its own Steve Jobs.

Steve Jobs...then we'll have to pay Apple prices!

/uploads/emoticons/default_laugh.png">

 

You may be right in your notion about them giving SONY the look away. I'm not sure how they feel currently but a year or so ago, the impression I got is that they don't consider themselves at par with SONY. That they were a much smaller outfit compared to the big boys.

 

But I get your gist about Fujifilm coming to terms with market competitiveness and to innovate in order to survive with innovative offerings. In that, I fully agree. I hope their expansion plans which they spoke of then has worked out with capacity to work on new offerings.

 

Their next "high end" and "no holds barred" X camera will be a turning point......or not.

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