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GFX & f2 lenses spell the end for high end, x lenses


Naddan28
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I think there is room in the X-system for quality-pro level ( and heavier) lenses and more compact but still high performance lenses.  The joy of the X-system is that the lens set is very comprehensive and appeals to photographers, from street photographers, fashion photographers, landscape photographers, etc.  I trust Fujifilm will continue to build XF lenses that meet the needs of a range of users.  And, in fact, the predicted lenses, the 80mm Macro and wide-angle zoom, are filling niche roles for nature and landscape photographers.  

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I hope this does not happen. I chose the Fuji X series because it is a professional system, well the X-Pro 1/2 and XT-1/2 and X-100 series. I have gone through their lenses and picked out the best. I have the original 18mm f.2 and 35mm f.1.4, and have decided to get the 16mm f.1.4 to replace the 18mm f.2.

I wanted the 33mm f.1 to replace the 35mm f.1.4, but that seems to have been cancelled, this is not a good sign!  

 

Mark

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For example Canon has just undes 100 EF available lenses (if i'm right), some of them in different versions like 70-200 (4 of them)....primes also...

So if fuji made an f1.0 line it wouldn't be too much, at the same time would satisfy a lot of current costumers and of course would compete with the FF brands out there. So at the same time would gain a lot of new fotographers switching from other systems.

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Good Evening,

 

I used ISO 3200 the other day! 

 

With the difference in just about everything is the only thing in common the fuji name

 

Maybe the X Series maybe a consumer feeder to the big boy on the marque

I cannot see the geegee affecting X Series sales

 

Having progressed to the XPRO2 via Fuji Compact to Bridge to XA1 etc. I never saw them in competition.

It was need for a better quality to do what I required and opportunity ( money to progress ) 

 

​Double the performance in autofocus of the XS1 & range of HS50 etc with a 2017 sensor processor etc.

and the argument to buy the long glass of the is harder to make.

 

I am fairly certain each lens/body will be expected to stand alone in the contribution to the company profits

and little credence is given to filling gaps or making a faster lens unless projected sales justify it

 

Suffering from GAS, when I have acquired what works for me it sticks, my car is 25 and has wheels at each corner that turn

The camera market has been sustained by remarkable quality/cost strides.

We had a northerly wind two weeks ago driving high seas across the pier, the number of photographers straining & braving the elements with class gear to get there own shot of the big wave in futility crashing into Victoria Mighty Engineering was a sight to be seen. Ten years ago they would have been content to buy a professional taken & framed memory.

 

The well heeled amateur may run to x series - the geegee is a horse of a different  ilk.

The competition is from a different direction. 

 

best regards

 

David

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All of this is counterintuitive the philosophy of a camera which based its fortune on being smaller and compacter. 

 

 

You are making up a narrative that is not based in fact.

 

The latest X100 is slightly smaller than the first generation X100... and very slightly heavier. It is basically the exact same camera 

 

The X-Pro2 is the exact same weight as the X-Pro1 and ever so slightly larger dimensions (~1mm).

 

The X-T20 is the same weight and dimensions as the X-T10

 

Only the X-T2 has any difference from its predecessor. And the X-T2 is 2 ounces heavier, and 2-3 millimeters larger. I have both right here and they feel very close to each other... the difference is not significant, except the X-T2 feels better built and has more secure doors on it. 

 

And when the X-T1 first came out, there was no X-T10/20. Today you can buy the X-T20 and it is significantly smaller than the X-T1... 

 

So today, with the X-T20 and f2 lenses, you can buy a Fuji X system that is significantly smaller and lighter than when the X-T1 came out.

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actually I could fill several pages of quotes form other threads of people saying “ I switched to fuji form Canon or Nikon because of the weight and size”, to deny that the main first attraction was based on a high quality system small and relatively cheap is in my opinion to deny the reason of the initial success.

 

However two things have happened recently.

 

The sales of X-T2 and the pre-sales of GFX have shocked the company.

 

In my opinion they are now seriously trying to deal with this and are thinking of a way forward which won’t damage their market share. 

 

One possible scenario is concentrating into developing the GFX for a certain type of public while keeping the X cameras attractive to a market that has revealed itself more diversified.

 

It is obvious that developing both the X-T and the GFX generation will bring them at odds at least in some cases.

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I read this over the weekend and thought it was a good nicely provocative question.

 

But I think with sensors improving every few years, the limits in terms of what an APS-C camera wont do will become less and less, so it has the potential to become an even better enthusiast to professional level camera system if the lens selection keeps up.  

 

Photography is changing.  While in the short term smartphones are eating into camera sales, I suspect they are opening the doors to photography to many who want a high quality system they can enjoy.

 

So on that basis I can see there being a great market for lenses for Fuji in the £300 - £1500 range (maybe even £2000 for a 300mm F4 prime).  So having come so far why would Fuji stop developing lenses?

 

I do however think the general obsession with the idea of a 33 F1 is misguided and something like a 35 F1.2 WR weighing in at less than 300g and £700 to complement the 56mm would sell pretty well as it would most likely be true to what I believe is the X-System ethos, high quality, not too big, a joy to use. Some of my best shots have come from my 18mm F2 which is still far more joyful than any Nikon / Canon APS-C lens, and yes that is a dig at the plastic in every sense, disposable equipment that has dominated the market since about 2003.

 

I am 100% certain that Fuji have found a really good niche and I can't see why they would stop developing now.

 

As for the GFX it is a completely different market.  A £1000 will get you up and running with an X System camera the GFX is big and 7 times as expensive.  Great but it isn't even a upgrade path for 99% of X system users.  

Portable, not really
Price, almost an order of magnitude more expensive

Focus, super narrow, sports, street etc pretty much out of the question

 

 Which is why the X System needs the very good glass as well as the more entry level stuff.

 

 

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actually I could fill several pages of quotes form other threads of people saying “ I switched to fuji form Canon or Nikon because of the weight and size”, to deny that the main first attraction was based on a high quality system small and relatively cheap is in my opinion to deny the reason of the initial success.

 

 

 

 

The weight and size were for sure a big factor for me. The two biggest things though, were the Fuji X-T1 and its dedicated knobs/design plus the excellent Fuji lenses made of metal and with aperture rings and great optical quality and feel. For the first time in the digital age, a camera reminded me of what I liked about shooting my old Nikon FM2. Also, both Canon and Nikon do not really develop their APS-C lens lineups. They have almost no primes. You have to go full frame for that. Fuji took advantage of their concern for competing with their own full frame offerings.

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However two things have happened recently.

 

The sales of X-T2 and the pre-sales of GFX have shocked the company.

 

In my opinion they are now seriously trying to deal with this and are thinking of a way forward which won’t damage their market share. 

 

I don't think the sales of the X-T2 have shocked the company. They have had supply shortages due to unforeseen external circumstances. Otherwise its success was obvious. The X-T1 was successful and an X-T2 was in high demand by users to address the few shortcomings of the X-T1... which it did and did well. The X-T2 is exactly what I always wished the X-T1 was. The X-T2 is a brilliant camera.

 

I do agree that there is some surprise at the initial success of the GFX.

 

However, the two systems have a huge and intrinsic differentiation. The basic normal lens for the GFX is 2 1/2 times the weight, twice the size and almost 4 times the cost of its APS-C counterpart. There just is no problem with the 2 systems competing with each other. Going medium format insured that. The GFX is incapable of replacing most of what I use the X-T2's for.

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GFX and X-T2 are very different beasts, and that won't change till probably 2018 or 2019, and even then, the APS-C cameras will always have a huge speed advantage. So the "pro" component in upcoming APS-C cameras is geared toward speed, agility, video, while the "pro" component of upcoming medium format stuff is geared toward resolution, IQ and (of course) better response/AF. 

Edited by flysurfer
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Milandro isnt making anything up!

 

The original 3 XF lenses were all pretty small and light (I mean the 18/35f1.4/60) and subsequent lenses (bar the 27) got larger

 

The 35/60 in particular are good optical performers.

 

But people wanted better AF, which made the size grow

 

People also want stella optical performance which made the size grow (because of physics and the APS crop factor)

 

Now the tech is there for Fuji to make fast AF small lenses - the so called 'Fujicrons' but people are not happy that they're only F2 and/or that they're not as sharp as the F1.4 versions. But this what makes them small and light

 

Personally I love 1.4 glass, but devils advocate.... Fuji only have 4 lenses that are faster than f2 (16/23/35/56) so the F2s are more in line with their range than people seem to give them credit

 

Also, as much as I want a 35 f1 - we have to understand just how hard it will be to make such a lens

 

Sure a 35/f1 will give DOF and FOV much like a 50 F1.4 on FF, but that doesn't change the fact it's still a 35mm lens. So for example Leica make a 35 F1.4, it has no weather sealing, no AF and costs north of £3000

 

Now factor in the Fuji version would have to be a stop faster, weather sealed and have blazing AF and we start to see the challenge of making such an optic in a cost effective way

 

Fuji have both groups of people covered (the 1.4ers and the WR/fast AFers) in the same focal lengths - just not in the same lens

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Yes some lenses have gotten bigger, but I still don't see how that's a bad thing... If you don't want them, don't buy them. Plenty of people do want them, so why can't Fuji profit from it? I don't want a selfie camera, but I'm not going to say Fuji shouldn't make it because it doesn't mesh with their core values (or whatever it was that was said earlier in this thread). Who cares? They're making money and it doesn't affect me.

 

If Fuji can make a bigger lens for a small camera and make money with it, why would anybody want to stop them? I could understand the complaining if say, making the 33 F1 meant that a smaller lens like the 35 F2 had to cease production, but that's not the case here. They're making high-end lenses in addition to all the super compact lenses! The more money Fuji makes selling x-series lenses, the more money they'll put into future x-series cameras and lenses. We all win from that. 

 

 

And as for the OP's original statement, I think that was answered very swiftly when they put the new telephoto prime on the roadmap right after this thread popped up! Maybe it's just coincidence but the thread was started on February 18th, and the new roadmap with x-series 200mm telephoto prime lens was announced February 22nd, lol. I think it's safe to say there will be more high-end lenses for the x-system. I just wish the 200 prime would come out sooner than 2018!

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With the GFX system, recent slew of f2 lenses and pulling of the alleged superfast 33m I have to wonder whether it spells the end for any development (or redevelopment) of high end x lenses. What do others think?

 

Personally I'm on the fence and have held off investing anymore cash in my X series gear.

 

Knowing Fujifilm, they'd probably make the 33mm F0.95 a reality after the GFX's been delivered and is running smoothly.....I'd say give it 2 - 3 years. Expect it to be big but desirably so....it'll belong more to the X-Pro end of things....

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I think they are just as much on the fence as OP is

 

They are waiting to see where to go. In the beginning they might have had a clear project but then they started to reconsider as soon as the market was sending them signals.

 

I personally think that it was a great move to introduce a camera witha lager sensor than full frame because they felt the pressure of all those whom were asking the impossible, a full frame X system.

 

 

This, couldn’t happen, because of their choice made for the lenses. As we should know, these lenses couldn’t be used for a larger sensor so they would need a totally different system. 

 

They came up with a system that is cheap enough to be able to entice the amateur with deep pockets ( and apparently there are many out there) and the professional alike (Lately I have been thinking of what this word really means these days, since there is less and less paid work , and paid way less than it once was, but the ranks of the professionals seems to be growing more and more).

 

At  pretty much the same time they gave us the X-T2 (X-T20)  and X-Pro 2.

 

They are telling us that for whatever reason the X-Pro 2 won’t get 4K filming.

 

But they are also teling us that they have made their new affordable professional video lenses  ALSO for the X cameras.

 

Now this makes little sense at the moment because there are many better specialized video cameras than the X-T2 BUT it is just possible that they are now segmenting.

 

Of course it is only speculation but I feel that the Giant Fuji X system (remember they said this was the first of a generation) will get the benefit of a lot of goodies in the lens department.

 

The top of the  XT series will become more and more video oriented in future but receive less upgrades in the optical department. There will always be some lenses for those who will use these cameras for photography.

 

The X  ( pro and we shall see the X3~ ) will stay a photographic camera  and use mostly compact lenses.

 

As soon as a company grows , they have to segment their production otherwise they run the risk to intrude in their own market with their own products and become their own competitor.

 

Fuji has been extraordinarily successful with carving a niche and appealing to a certain market, but that market is finite. So introducing more and more products will crowd this market and ultimately damage sales.

 

Differentiation is the word is the word.

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And thus the dilemma of going from cottage to corporate.

 

You pretty much summed up Fujifilm' scenario. One more to add, Fujifilm is by far a very small company. They're trying desperately to expand in a safe manner. The successes of the T2 and GFX50s showed them a very clear line of sight on where they should be headed.....and they're "coping".

 

I'd anticipate things may slow down slightly for the X lenses somewhat. Hopefully not for too long. Personally, I was wondering, apart from the 80mm macro and maybe a 150mm telephoto. What may be the other X lenses that people need? I'd fully welcome the niche 33mm F0.95 but that's just me as I have use for it. Even a 35mm F1.4 v2 may be good.

 

I dunno. Anyone?

Edited by Aswald
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what people “ need” and what they want ( or say they need) are two very different things.

 

 

My prediction is that the market will fragment itself and automatically segment. 

 

some would go for the “ Bigger = Better” option and get the GFX, there will be pro’s and rich amateurs alike in this category, some would be previous XT owners.

 

Some will indeed shoot 4K videos ( although few will really buy the new video lenses because cheap though they relatively are they are still long and expensive) with the XT. I don’t know that many realize that mounting 4K videos requires expensive software and hardware but this is the same with any fad. Some long to have something, regardless.

 

 

Some will go for the retro feel and compactness of the X series, these are the hardcore X folks. The ones whom were attracted by these specific characteristics.

 

I am very much on the fence and will wait and see, most probably my next X camera will be an X pro 3 or XE4.

 

I have all the toys that I need and even after this many years that I am in this game I still have to find a camera that limits my creativity.

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X-Pro is definitely the format for me. I enjoy it's format tremendously. The Pro2 can be a bit smaller.......especially with the hand grip on.

 

4K is a real pain even though the screen real estate is a warm welcome. I'd only recommend it if one REALLY needs it. Upgrading hardware is only one of the issues. Storage and HDR formats are the others. Hopefully Dolby Vision HDR will solve things for everyone.

 

Whichever way Fujifilm may go, it's definitely very interesting times ahead. I'm eagerly waiting for the next X lens!

 

"I have all the toys that I need and even after this many years that I am in this game I still have to find a camera that limits my creativity". I guess that's easier than finding one that can keep up. :D

Edited by Aswald
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