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I think the joystick is kinda worthless


Jwctp

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I'm looking forward to trying the joystick when I buy my X-T2 early next year.

 

I loved selecting AF points using it with the Canon DSLRs I've owned.  If the X-T2 moves the cursor as slowly as the one on the Canon 5D series, I'll probably look into reducing the number of AF points available so that I can get close to the one I want easier, which was what I had to do with the Canon DSLRs.

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As long as we're piling on idiotic limitations: Why the hell does the AF point lock when you engage auto exposure lock? It really seems like the designers at Fuji are far more concerned with aesthetics than usability. So many elements, like the absolute dials and the joystick, seem to be there to make a statement, without sufficient attention being paid to how they will actually serve (or hinder) the user. If they hired just one good designer (preferably a photographer as well), they could vastly improve the ergonomics of their cameras...

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Not sure if y'all are using the joystick for it's intended purpose.  There will always be a measure of focus and recompose with any moving subject.  The joystick is not there to move the focus point to the eye and shoot.  It is awesome for quickly getting the focus point to the area of the eye, and then doing your work from there, which helps in not losing focus when recomposing.  

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I use the X-T2 everyday too, and the joy stick may not be instantaneous but it sure beats going into the menu to adjust the point.  Personally I love having it for my daily assignments.

 

On what (Fuji) camera do you have to go into a menu to move the focus point? Even the X-Pro1 doesn't require that. Just one push and then the D-Pad moves the point. The exact same number of presses as the joytsick on the X-Pro2/X-T2 in Press to Unlock mode (which is pretty much required if you don't want the point always moving around on its own)

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The XT2 joystick is far from useless and is hundred times more useful then using a D-pad to move points. That being said i don't find it as speedy  as on my 5D3 which has a "thumb joystick" and overall much better ergonomics for back button focus, single point maneuvering. 

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Saying it's "kinda worthless" is a little strong. It's functional. Also you don't have to move it just by clicks. You can hold it in the direction you want the focus box to move and it will move faster. It can get a little out of control then, though.

 

The thing I don't understand and maybe somebody can help me is why the focus point will sometimes jump to an area of higher contrast after I've moved it somewhere? This is in AF-S mode.

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Funny, how things turn out only a few of months after release where features like the joystick was highly praised. Now both the x pro 2 and x t2 seem to suck in sooo many ways :-)

Guess the moral is: never buy a newly released model till after a couple of months when the frenzy has cooled down and real life experience start to show its ugly head :-)

Guess I will stick with my excellent x pro 1 ;-)

 

I own both the X-T1 and the X-T2 .Both are great cameras,but....the jump considering the image quality between the two sensors ,the old one and the new one, is the biggest among any other new cameras  released in the market (at least the last 3 years) .The AF-C might have limitations in raw buffer ,but it's the best  in terms of AF accuracy and jpegs are ok for me.When i shot 11fps burst on fast moving subjects ,i get like 75% super accurate images ,zoomed all the way . In terms of low light ,X-T2 is at least one stop better than the previous generation and the noise is ok up to 12800 ,while on the X-T1 the limit is 6400 and not many keepers (waxy skins etc).

 

For portraits the joystick is  useful and makes your life easier,maybe not the fastest ,but would x-t2 or x-pro2 be the same cameras without it?i guess not.

Edited by Vasilis
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Not sure if y'all are using the joystick for it's intended purpose.  There will always be a measure of focus and recompose with any moving subject.  The joystick is not there to move the focus point to the eye and shoot.  It is awesome for quickly getting the focus point to the area of the eye, and then doing your work from there, which helps in not losing focus when recomposing.  

 

Fuji added up to 325 focus points on the X-T2. So Fuji's intention is that you can use it to chase the subject around in a precise fashion. 

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Saying it's "kinda worthless" is a little strong. It's functional. Also you don't have to move it just by clicks. You can hold it in the direction you want the focus box to move and it will move faster. It can get a little out of control then, though.

 

The thing I don't understand and maybe somebody can help me is why the focus point will sometimes jump to an area of higher contrast after I've moved it somewhere? This is in AF-S mode.

 

When the subject moves 3-4 focus points away, the acceleration won't pick up. So it is still slow in the beginning. 

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The XT2 joystick is far from useless and is hundred times more useful then using a D-pad to move points. That being said i don't find it as speedy  as on my 5D3 which has a "thumb joystick" and overall much better ergonomics for back button focus, single point maneuvering. 

 

You're right. It's far from useless. But it's not 100 times more useful than using a D-pad. The speed of the joystick is so slow, I'm having to use it like a D-pad. I'm clicking it towards the point I want instead of holding it down (it feels faster that way). That feels more awkward than the D-Pad. 

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You're right. It's far from useless. But it's not 100 times more useful than using a D-pad. The speed of the joystick is so slow, I'm having to use it like a D-pad. I'm clicking it towards the point I want instead of holding it down (it feels faster that way). That feels more awkward than the D-Pad.

I've always clicked the joystick to move points even on my 5D3. The advantage of the joystick imo isn't so much about speed vs D-Pad but the control you get with your thumb resting on it, especially when you're shooting at eye level. It's placement also feels more natural then having your thumb all the way down by the D-pad. Nikon suffered from this for years before finally caving in to a thumb level joystick with the D5/500

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If the X-T2 moves the cursor as slowly as the one on the Canon 5D series, I'll probably look into reducing the number of AF points available so that I can get close to the one I want easier, which was what I had to do with the Canon DSLRs.

 

Actually, that's what's recommended by most people I speak to. If not mistaken Fujifilm says for faster assignment, use fewer af points but for better fine tuning use more af points.

 

For me, the joystick is definitely faster than the Dpad. Yes, if they had cursor speed adjustment it would be perfect. Something, I'm sure can be had via firmware update.

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I'm diving in here with the original poster with both feet:

 

"Kind of worthless" is dead on accurate. 

 

Not because I wish to complain, but in the hope that firmware will correct this.

 

Moving the AF spot from all the way from one side to the other:

 

3 Seconds.

 

Sometimes faster (2.5), sometimes slower, 3.2, but frequently at 3 seconds. (Variations due to my hitting stop/start inaccurately)

 

If you photograph people 3 seconds is an ETERNITY.

 

For instance, photographing groups of people yesterday I frequently need to go from person to person, far left, far right, center, and so on.

 

Quickly.

 

Not happening ...!

 

Additionally, the AF point "brakes" are WORTHLESS.

 

Lifting your finger off of the joystick does NOT stop the AF point selection movement.

 

It consistently continues to move 2 or 3 boxes over, or worse (frequently) jumps to the opposite side if you tried stopping the AF point near the edge.

 

I attempted to track the diagonal time from say top left to bottom right, but the AF point jumps erratically and I found I couldn't time it.

 

Again I'm being pushed into focus and recompose, and hope that the shallow DOF stays in focus on the eyes.

 

For those folks who want to tell the original poster and I that it works great for you, than I'm going to say it.

 

Here I go...

 

It works great for you....as well or better than your Nikon ### Canon MK ###, and you couldn't disagree more.

 

But this comment isn't directed at you.

 

Carry on my friend.

 

This is for FUJI Corporation.

 

Peter

 

 

 

 

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How many AF points do you have enabled? On my XPro2 it's much quicker than that, but I have the recommended smaller number enabled

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

That's with 325...

 

yes, 91 is faster ( about 2 seconds vs 3).

 

If they could speed up the rate for the 325 closer to the 91 that would be a big help....

 

Gonna leave it at 91.

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I'm diving in here with the original poster with both feet:

 

"Kind of worthless" is dead on accurate. 

 

Not because I wish to complain, but in the hope that firmware will correct this.

 

Moving the AF spot from all the way from one side to the other:

 

3 Seconds.

 

Sometimes faster (2.5), sometimes slower, 3.2, but frequently at 3 seconds. (Variations due to my hitting stop/start inaccurately)

 

If you photograph people 3 seconds is an ETERNITY.

 

For instance, photographing groups of people yesterday I frequently need to go from person to person, far left, far right, center, and so on.

 

Quickly.

 

Not happening ...!

 

Additionally, the AF point "brakes" are WORTHLESS.

 

Lifting your finger off of the joystick does NOT stop the AF point selection movement.

 

It consistently continues to move 2 or 3 boxes over, or worse (frequently) jumps to the opposite side if you tried stopping the AF point near the edge.

 

I attempted to track the diagonal time from say top left to bottom right, but the AF point jumps erratically and I found I couldn't time it.

 

Again I'm being pushed into focus and recompose, and hope that the shallow DOF stays in focus on the eyes.

 

For those folks who want to tell the original poster and I that it works great for you, than I'm going to say it.

 

Here I go...

 

It works great for you....as well or better than your Nikon ### Canon MK ###, and you couldn't disagree more.

 

But this comment isn't directed at you.

 

Carry on my friend.

 

This is for FUJI Corporation.

 

Peter

 

 

Saying the joystick is kind of worthless is a strong statement. In my opinion you just haven't learned to use it yet. I'm saying that with complete respect, because I don't know who you are or how often you use the camera. I'm not trying to start an internet argument or piss anyone off. 

 

The first time I picked up the XT2 I was a little disappointed in the jostick also, but I got used to it very quickly! It does not take 3 seconds to go from one side of the frame to the other. If it does, you're not using it to it's full potential. I take photographs of people also, every single day. In fact, I've taken 32,500 photos with the XT2 since it was released 3 months ago. 

 

 

For the people that say it's worthless, I want to know how you're using it.

 

Are you clicking from one focus point to the next, one point at a time? 

 

Are you going from one side to the other in a straight line?

 

When you move in a straight line, there is a delay between the first and second point, before it speeds up. Not sure why Fuji decided to put a delay there. I guess because the camera isn't sure if you're ready to keep moving continuously. 

 

To speed things up, try moving in a more indirect manner. Say you want to move from the left side of the frame to the right, Move right then up, for example, and the initial delay goes away. Moving it around this way, constantly varying direction, lets you change the focus point continuously around the frame at a fast rate. Imagine that it's almost like doing a figure 8 with the joystick to get to the position you want. It sounds like a pain in the ass, but you get used to it very quick. The problem is the joystick doesn't move fast in a straight line because of the delay. By varying your direction, you're bypassing that limitation which makes the joystick very fast. 

 

Maybe Fuji will see this and fix this issue with a firmware update. For now, experiment with the joystick and get used to it's limitations. It moves plenty fast enough for professional work. I shoot weddings, corporate events, portraits, all with moving subjects and have no issue with the speed of the joystick. And yes, 91 focus points is much faster than 325. 

 

Edited by RM_Photog
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For the people that say it's worthless, I want to know how you're using it.

 

Are you clicking from one focus point to the next, one point at a time? 

 

Are you going from one side to the other in a straight line?

 

When you move in a straight line, there is a delay between the first and second point, before it speeds up. Not sure why Fuji decided to put a delay there. I guess because the camera isn't sure if you're ready to keep moving continuously. 

 

To speed things up, try moving in a more indirect manner. Say you want to move from the left side of the frame to the right, Move right then up, for example, and the initial delay goes away. Moving it around this way, constantly varying direction, lets you change the focus point continuously around the frame at a fast rate. Imagine that it's almost like doing a figure 8 with the joystick to get to the position you want. It sounds like a pain in the ass, but you get used to it very quick. The problem is the joystick doesn't move fast in a straight line because of the delay. By varying your direction, you're bypassing that limitation which makes the joystick very fast. 

 

Maybe Fuji will see this and fix this issue with a firmware update. For now, experiment with the joystick and get used to it's limitations. It moves plenty fast enough for professional work. I shoot weddings, corporate events, portraits, all with moving subjects and have no issue with the speed of the joystick. And yes, 91 focus points is much faster than 325. 

 

 

 

I'm sorry, but that sounds ridiculous. Why not go the most direct path? It's not intuitive to go in a roundabout way to your focus point. You can't say that we "haven't learned to use it yet" because most of us are probably doing the most logical thing and moving it directly to the focus point instead of making an indirect path. I don't think Fuji intended the joystick to be used like that either. 

 

But thanks for the tip. I'll try it and see if it helps. But Fuji definitely needs to do a firmware update and let us adjust the speed of the joystick. 

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I'm sorry, but that sounds ridiculous. Why not go the most direct path? It's not intuitive to go in a roundabout way to your focus point. You can't say that we "haven't learned to use it yet" because most of us are probably doing the most logical thing and moving it directly to the focus point instead of making an indirect path. I don't think Fuji intended the joystick to be used like that either. 

 

But thanks for the tip. I'll try it and see if it helps. But Fuji definitely needs to do a firmware update and let us adjust the speed of the joystick. 

 

I'm just trying to help.

 

Maybe I should have said "just haven't got used to it yet" instead of "haven't learned to use it yet". That's the way I meant it at least. 

 

In any case, no it's not the most straightforward approach, but it does work faster that way. As I mentioned, there is a delay when moving straight across the frame, up or down. I'm sure Fuji had a good reason, or at least they thought it was a good reason. I mean the joystick is still a fairly new feature for Fuji. Until they address it, try what I suggested and see if the joystick works better for you. 

 

I use the joystick every day in fast paced environments and never have an issue with it's speed. 

Edited by RM_Photog
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The responses bring up good and valid points.

 

Thank you....

 

As users of the tool we must learn to use it as best we can, despite it's limitations.

 

For instance, I could try to remember that the fastest route to a focus point is not the most direct path, and I will try suggested workarounds.

 

However, like the poster JWCTP said it's counterintuitive, and my experience in such things is that it will be a difficult to plug it into muscle memory.

 

Advice/suggestions always appreciated. No one pissed off.... :D

 

As far as how much I shoot, and how I shoot, is exactly why it's an issue for some like me and totally not an issue for others.

 

Fuji is proud to say, and I agree, that the camera shouldn't get in the way of capturing an image.

 

The joystick lag time, for how I shoot,  gets in the way.

 

RM-Photog: I guess the best way to give you an example, you being a wedding photographer, of where the camera lags for me, would be the "dancing at the wedding".

 

Low light. Fast movement. Unpredictable. Lots of moving the focus point. Shallow depth of field. Not much room for error. Fast fast fast.

 

Everything else about the camera suits my needs, stays "out of my way" as Fuji intended, except for the slow joystick.

 

I shoot a as an editorial photographer and it's how I make my $$$...I have been a photographer since 1977....and have tens of thousands of images with the X-T2 since it came out...I use it every day. 

 

I can bend myself and make things work.

 

But it's a bit like blaming the consumer for an oversight by the engineers.....

 

The manufacture is ultimately responsible for the product they put out.

 

My 2 cents:  Needed...firmware update to speed up joystick in an otherwise very fast camera.

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Agreed, except I don't think they really need to speed it up, as much as they need to remove that delay when moving straight across the frame. The delay makes it feel painfully slow. It needs to have the option to make it full speed continuous movement in any direction, for people like us. 

 

Yes this is sort of a workaround, but I got used to it very quickly after purchasing the camera and now I don't think about it. It took me one day to be exact, at a corporate event, before I was used to it.The fact that this way is faster, made it easier for me to adjust to it. I've used it at probably 8 or 10 weddings so it's sort of ingrained in the way I compose by this point. 

 

 

I never really used 325 focus points so I can't comment on that. 91 was a lot for me to be honest, but I'm used to it now.
I actually preferred shooting with 9 focus points or less with Canon, but that was a different beast altogether.

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I've always clicked the joystick to move points even on my 5D3. The advantage of the joystick imo isn't so much about speed vs D-Pad but the control you get with your thumb resting on it, especially when you're shooting at eye level. It's placement also feels more natural then having your thumb all the way down by the D-pad. Nikon suffered from this for years before finally caving in to a thumb level joystick with the D5/500

But it is in the wrong place on the Canon 5D. That makes it not very useful for me as a left eye, glasses wearing, user. The Canon (and Fujifilm) joysticks would me more useful if they were closer to the edge of the camera.

 

Fujifilm got the design right with the X-Pro1. That was one of the reasons I switched. The X-Pro2 follows the same philosophy. They went the wrong way with the X-T cameras, in my opinion. Too sleek, and buttons in the wrong place.

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