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Enrico

XT2 problem correct exposure

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I bought a xt2 but I kept my previous xt1, with xt2 I pointed out problems with the meter: In any measuring modes (spot, central media and all others) underexpose to 1.5 stops in the presence of high-contrast subjects (eg white car against dark asphalt) seems to use srempre spot mode, and a little 'under-exposed, too. The same photos from your xt1 are perfect.

Something wrong or is this a serious flaw?

Thanks for anyone who can help me

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Yup, I found the same thing.  

 

If there is something very bright, the metering result is an under exposed image by approx 1+ stop.  I commented on it via this forum back in Sept.  It seems that the XT2 is afraid of lots of highlights in a scene and runs in the opposite direction by greatly under exposing.  The XT1 seemed to not care as much which resulted in some pretty good exposures/metering when there were some strong highlights.

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Hey guys

Searched everywhere for others that had the same problem as I, finally found it.

 

Backstory:

 

I have had a X-T10 for over a year with my 35 mm 1.4 R as the main lens. Been extremely pleased with the results. ver crisp and sharp images and those lovely lovely Fuji colors. I used to be a RAW shooter, but do not wanna spend too much time tweaking images, so 70% og the images taken with the X-T10 are being used as SOOC jpegs. Exposure and WB are in 95% of the time spot onI am Graphic Design er by trade, so I am extremely picky with colors and sharpness etc. but so far I love the Fuji cameras and lenses. I do use Iridient Developer for the best images, to pull out more detail and a slightly cleaner look.

 

However, three things that I did not like with my X-T10 was:

1. Autofocus performance. Simply too slow. And yes I know that the 35 mm 1.4 is slow and noisy, but the characteristic of that particular lens just keeps blowing me away.

2. Waxy skin tones from ISO 1600 and above. Even at NR -2, its too smooth.

3. Slow overall performance and too low resolution. Slow to start, slow to to da anything. I do a lot of tight crops, and sometimes I'd wish for a higer resolution sensor, 20-24 MP.

 

Fast forward to now where I have bought the X-T2 for the above reasons two weeks ago. Love the form factor, handling, performance, high ISO files, Acros Sim. and so much more. However I was extremely disappointed with the AUTO exposure of the X-T2.

 

As you both mentioned, it severely underexposes shots by at least ⅓ of a stop, sometimes up to 1/1 stop, especially outside with high-contrast scenes against the sky. It does really try to preserve the highlights at all costs, and that very fine if you're a RAW shooter, but for SOOC shooters, this sucks!

 

It doesn't really matter what metering mode you use, it's still off. At first I thought I had a lemon, but then I tried resetting the shooting menu, and it helped! It's still underexposes, but it seems much better now than before. Also, when using the eye-detection, exposure seems like it fluctuates, while acquiring focus, so I am not using this for now. It's mostly down to ⅓ EV now, I have that fixed on + ⅓ for now.

 

It seems like the X-T2 is much more sensitive to metering that with X-T1 / X-T10. I do wish that there was a setting to shoot for either:

A: Preserving Highlights, for jpeg shooters

B: Preserving Midtones / Shadows, for RAW shooters

 

Especially for portraits, I much prefer to have midtones/shadows preserved and highlights close to being blown. I do hope that this will be addressed in a firmware update, alongside some tweaks to the Film sims, which I think were better on the X-T10 (I used a color+2 boosted CC most of the time).

 

Anyway, did any of you ever solve your underexposing woes? Did you take you return your camera, or just leaned to live with it? I can recommend resetting the shooting menu, at least for me, it helped.

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There is nothing wrong with your camera.

 

The oddities of various metering systems perfectly normal.

 

The number of variables for a proper 18% gray all through the scene, plus algorithms related to camera settings, ensures a variety of "proper exposures".

 

I can not stress this enough to X-T2 shooters: 

 

You are in charge. It is up to you to "drive" the camera with exposure compensation.

 

This is a professional tool for people who understand metering, and it's abilities and limitations.

 

It is rare that any photograph I take doesn't have some sort of exposure compensation in it.

 

THAT IS NORMAL.

 

Short of an external hand held incident light meter (vs a reflected light meter) cameras ALWAYS give slight variations.

 

These are not bugs being posted on the forums about exposure errors, it's people who misunderstand what the tool is capable of.

 

It's not the camera folks.

 

Use that exposure compensation dial...a lot....make conscious decisions about exposure.

 

The cameras of today (WYSIWYG) and histograms provide YOU THE USER with information, but the final exposure is yours to make based upon that info.

 

Use the dial.

 

DRIVE YOUR CAMERA.

 

Peter

 

PS: if you don't know what 18% gray (grey) is in regards to photography look it up. It is the key to understanding photography exposure.

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Yup, I found the same thing.  

 

If there is something very bright, the metering result is an under exposed image by approx 1+ stop.  I commented on it via this forum back in Sept.  It seems that the XT2 is afraid of lots of highlights in a scene and runs in the opposite direction by greatly under exposing.  The XT1 seemed to not care as much which resulted in some pretty good exposures/metering when there were some strong highlights.

Yes the camera is afraid of highlights. Good point.  Wonderful thing! 

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There is nothing wrong with your camera.

 

The oddities of various metering systems perfectly normal.

 

The number of variables for a proper 18% gray all through the scene, plus algorithms related to camera settings, ensures a variety of "proper exposures".

 

I can not stress this enough to X-T2 shooters:

 

You are in charge. It is up to you to "drive" the camera with exposure compensation.

 

This is a professional tool for people who understand metering, and it's abilities and limitations.

 

It is rare that any photograph I take doesn't have some sort of exposure compensation in it.

 

THAT IS NORMAL.

 

Short of an external hand held incident light meter (vs a reflected light meter) cameras ALWAYS give slight variations.

 

These are not bugs being posted on the forums about exposure errors, it's people who misunderstand what the tool is capable of.

 

It's not the camera folks.

 

Use that exposure compensation dial...a lot....make conscious decisions about exposure.

 

The cameras of today (WYSIWYG) and histograms provide YOU THE USER with information, but the final exposure is yours to make based upon that info.

 

Use the dial.

 

DRIVE YOUR CAMERA.

 

Peter

 

PS: if you don't know what 18% gray (grey) is in regards to photography look it up. It is the key to understanding photography exposure.

Yes, this basically. Don't be scared of the dials.

 

There is no magic setting that is always correct.

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@Pete1959: This has nothing to do with not using the exp. comp and being afraid of doing things manually. The issue is that compared to X-T10 / X-T1, X-T2 meters differently, and almost always underexposes, whatever the lighting situation. It doesn't matter if you use spot metering, it will still underexpose in general, and moreover, it's a lot more sensitive in it's metering than earlier Fuji cams. You shouldn't be having to resort to keeping the exp.comp.dial to +⅓ EV by default.

 

For easy lighting conditions, I cannot for the life of me understand its metering choices. For tricky lighting situations, I always fix exposure/WB manually anyway.

 

Checking against the histogram, X-T2 is always at least ⅓ EV underexposed compared to the histogram of a jpeg or raw image where levels and exposure are fixed.  Checked and rechecked output vs. EVF and / or LCD. Not an issue in matching exposure.

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I've also found it to be somewhat erratic. My workaround has been to leave the exposure comp dial at -0.33 EV and then either leave keepers alone or push them +0.66EV - +1EV in the with camera developer. The reason for shooting at -0.33 EV is that even though the camera tries to meter to protect the highlights, it doesn't always succeed and the consequences of blowing them are indeed dire.

 

ISO bracketing mode also works to cover your bases, but is more annoying to me than just reprocessing the keepers. 

 

I don't trust the histogram either, it'll have a hill in the middle and nothing in the right 1/3rd and still highlights will still be blown (as can be seen in the tiny preview with blinkies available in one of the playback display modes).

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@Pete1959: This has nothing to do with not using the exp. comp and being afraid of doing things manually. The issue is that compared to X-T10 / X-T1, X-T2 meters differently, and almost always underexposes, whatever the lighting situation. It doesn't matter if you use spot metering, it will still underexpose in general, and moreover, it's a lot more sensitive in it's metering than earlier Fuji cams. You shouldn't be having to resort to keeping the exp.comp.dial to +⅓ EV by default.

 

For easy lighting conditions, I cannot for the life of me understand its metering choices. For tricky lighting situations, I always fix exposure/WB manually anyway.

 

Checking against the histogram, X-T2 is always at least ⅓ EV underexposed compared to the histogram of a jpeg or raw image where levels and exposure are fixed.  Checked and rechecked output vs. EVF and / or LCD. Not an issue in matching exposure.

 

Again, just my 2 cents....I just see zero exposure compensation as a starting point. From the way I operate always having -1/3'rd stop dialed in becomes arbitrary. I will add that I'm photograph police officers at work in black uniforms, so I'm always dialing down my exposures anyhow. At night even more so, as I want black sky to be black, dark tones to remain dark, and highlights free of clipping. I also shoot RAF. Again, I would add that anytime a new camera with a new chip and new algorithm's is going to "see" 18% gray slightly differently. 1/3rd of a stop compared to "XYZ" , who is to say what the "proper exposure" is from a reflected light meter being interpreted by a very complex computer? It's so arbitrary as to be meaningless in RAF (1/3rd of a stop?!), so long as the SOOC jpegs are proper. To have the RAF 1/3'rd of a stop underexposed is both a GREAT thing and perfectly acceptable as the RAF by design should strive to give the user as much data as possible for post without clipping. Hurrah Fuji on that one!

 

I have never viewed my indicated exposure as anything under than a starting point. My exposure compensation dial is more likely than not set somewhere other than zero at the time of exposure.

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Pete, you really seem to be apologizing for Fuji here, I think what people are saying is that, if Fuji is going to change the way the metering operates, which they apparently have, they would prefer it be an option (like Preserve Highlights), rather than something thrust upon them. Most likely, it's just a bug in the new generation's firmware and not a feature.

Edited by kimcarsons

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(Heatboy...I never used the phrase "afraid" of the dial, that was Tom's reply ; "Yes, this basically. Don't be scared of the dials.")

 

Just a reminder to folks the dial is there to be used (a lot if necessary).

 

Lots of folks are terrified of using that dial.

 

So long as the exposure compensation dial is not utilized you are shooting on "auto".

 

Manually setting an F stop and shutter speed, even if you take the camera off of Auto ISO, does not give you control of the exposure.

 

So long as the camera operator insists on leaving the exposure compensation dial alone the camera is on "auto" and the exposure decision is being made by a computer and not you the photographer.

 

I know lots of photographers, people who have owned their cameras for many years, who NEVER EVER dial in exposure compensation, who constantly blame their camera, and whose photography sucks.

 

Don't take this personally...I'm not saying that any poster here is wrong about anything.

 

I'm concerned it makes newbies get the wrong lesson.

 

Maybe the camera exposes slightly differently than "XYZ"?

 

Why in the real world does that mean anything at all???

 

I'm trying to underscore the point to new users with a professional tool that discussions about 1/3rd of a stop is pointless and very misleading and makes newbies think; "It's not me it's the camera".

 

That's not a good lesson to teach or learn.

 

I don't photograph the world as 18% gray anymore than I would bet on number 18 on the roulette wheel because it is in the middle of 36.

 

18 on the roulette wheel the perfect and accurate starting point for "average of all numbers", and in fact would be mathematically perfect (excluding zero double zero etc.), but the odds of you hitting on 18 is neither smaller than nor greater  than any other number.

 

Stop betting on number 18.

 

The world, the world the dictates your exposure, isn't a mathematical average.

 

Cheers.

 

Peter

 

ps: is everyone running sRGB as it is a known issue that Adobe RGB results in mismatched jpegs vs. viewfinder view.

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Pete, I think your argument in favor of riding the exposure compensation dial (which by the way, even if you're doing that, you're still shooting auto [like a chump?]), is distracting from the point that, apparently, the auto-exposure/metering algorithm on the X-T2 is more erratic than it was on the X-T1.

 

If people wanted to fiddle with the dials constantly, they would shoot in manual mode. The purpose of auto-exposure is to allow you to get the shot (more or less properly exposed) in situations where you don't have the time or the dexterity to ride the needle (or comp dial).

 

Sure, with the latitude of these sensors you can save a shot even if the exposure is off by several stops... It would still be nice if the auto-exposure got a little closer to the ballpark on its own like it does on other cameras (from the same manufacturer, even!)

 

There of course, many confounding factors involved... New algorithms, new sensor gain structure, perhaps changes in RawExposureBias/Fuji's notorious ISO misrating. Ranting against using auto mode is not helping anyone get to the bottom of the problem (and it is a problem!)

Edited by kimcarsons

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For me it's a biggie. One of Fuji X-cams main selling points is in fact that it's jpeg output is so goddamn fantastic. And one of the things the MAKES it so fantastic is Fuji's excellent to perfect auto metering. Wrong metering affects everything in the image, I'd much rather have a perfectly metered image that is slightly out of focus, that a sharp image where the metering is off, colors and contrast dull etc. yes, I know it can be fixed in the RAW, but I'd much prefer, not having to fiddle with the RAW files. That was possible with the X-T10.

 

Just saying that with the X-T2 compared to X-Trans II cams (at least mine!) it's a noticeable difference, and unfortunately not a good one. I do have had great shots with the X-T2, where I can see the expanded dynamics and details of the new sensor, but getting those 9 out of 10 bang-on-the-money shots that initially blew me away with my X-T10, isn't present with the X-T2 in it's current state.

 

I Maybe I just got a lemon and the sensor is off or something. Don't know yet. More testing to be done.

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I'sorry i'm new....

I wes set my xt2 to manual mode, but the exp comp ie not work, stay auto....

Someone tell me please hoe to manual exp....

 

Exposure compensation does not do anything if you have manually set the aperture, shutter speed, and ISO; if you are shooting in full manual exposure, you compensate by adjusting the Aperture, shutter speed, or iso depending on the requirements and which setting is most important:

 

If you need to freeze action and maintain a certain depth of field you can adjust the ISO

If you need the highest quality image (e.g. still life etc.) you want to leave the iso at 200, therefore you'd adjust the shutter speed or aperture

if you want the shallowest depth of field (e.g. a portrait) you want to keep a wide aperture, so you would adjust the shutter speed or iso to get the correct exposure.

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Pete, I think your argument in favor of riding the exposure compensation dial (which by the way, even if you're doing that, you're still shooting auto [like a chump?]), is distracting from the point that, apparently, the auto-exposure/metering algorithm on the X-T2 is more erratic than it was on the X-T1.

 

If people wanted to fiddle with the dials constantly, they would shoot in manual mode. The purpose of auto-exposure is to allow you to get the shot (more or less properly exposed) in situations where you don't have the time or the dexterity to ride the needle (or comp dial).

 

Sure, with the latitude of these sensors you can save a shot even if the exposure is off by several stops... It would still be nice if the auto-exposure got a little closer to the ballpark on its own like it does on other cameras (from the same manufacturer, even!)

 

There of course, many confounding factors involved... New algorithms, new sensor gain structure, perhaps changes in RawExposureBias/Fuji's notorious ISO misrating. Ranting against using auto mode is not helping anyone get to the bottom of the problem (and it is a problem!)

 

I float the ISO via the exp. compensation because of what I shoot...which is "night time street" where auto exposure is often fooled by lights.

 

There are many ways to use the tool, what works for me may not be an issue for you.

 

That's one of the reasons cameras have exp. compensation dials.

 

So: The OP is concerned about 1/3'rd of a stop. 

 

The OP doesn't say "it's erratic".

 

He's within 1/3rd of a stop.

 

That's pretty darn "in the ballpark"!

 

In real world non studio photography in uncontrolled challenging conditions it is abnormal not to need some exposure compensation.

 

Maybe someone can learn from the thread about the realities of metering etc. and have honest expectations.

 

Oh: I'm not a "chump". That's insulting. Knock it off. You disrespect this forum.

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Ok, calm down guys. All this is about, is:

 

Compared to taking the exact same shots with X-T10, with the same lens, seconds apart, same setup, my X-T2 underexposes by at least ⅓ of a stop, no matter the metering method used. End of story. 

 

Onwards…;->

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I was looking at a menu walkthrough of the Sony A6500 and noticed that it has an extra "permanent" exposure compensation setting in there, so that you can have your exposure comp. dial at zero and have it really mean +1/3rd. Nice feature.

 

I still think the Ricoh/Pentax "green button" manual mode + auto exposure sampling is the best method... Never forget you're at +1 or whatever, still get to use the camera's meter (spot's the best for this of course), no inconsistent exposures between multiple shots of a subject.

 

It's too bad Fuji's AE Lock locks the AF point too, otherwise AE-L could be used similar to a "green button".

 

Fuji take note: the other guys are doing better with metering usability.

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Ok, calm down guys. All this is about, is:

 

Compared to taking the exact same shots with X-T10, with the same lens, seconds apart, same setup, my X-T2 underexposes by at least ⅓ of a stop, no matter the metering method used. End of story. 

 

Onwards…;->

The metering mode and camera/lens combination is irrelevant - the "correct" exposure is the "correct" exposure. The fact that that there is a difference between two cameras and a few seconds apart is also irrelevant. As long as you get the correct exposure - it doesn't matter how you get it. Read Bryan Petersen - Understanding Exposure.

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I'sorry i'm new....

I wes set my xt2 to manual mode, but the exp comp ie not work, stay auto....

Someone tell me please hoe to manual exp....

 

It should function in auto ISO by "floating the ISO" as you dial in compensation.

 

You will see the exposure ISO change (on half press) as well as changes in the image itself in the viewfinder.

 

Keep in mind once you hit the extremes of the ISO settings it will cease adding compensation...ie; you can't go below ISO 200 no matter how far you turn the exposure compensation dial.

 

Under some lighting conditions it can make it appear not to be working....you dial and dial and nothing happens.

 

That just means you have hit the limits of the ISO range available (200-12,800)

 

When you are NOT IN auto ISO, and setting manual shutter and aperture, the exposure compensation dial does not work.

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Pete in 1959, which is aimed at all the Forum as "the repository of truth" apparently thinking they were the only one to know what the gray card at 18% we have absorbed the important lessons taught photographic technique.

Well, at best, it is not sure !!

If I am in optimum light situation, a person with no major imbalances of light and shadow, I have a right to expect that the exposure is correct, something that happens with XT1 and XT2 with no! (Underexpose 2/3 to 1 diaphragm) Exposure compensation is used in special cases and is not a command to use in normal cases. If Pete 1959 uses it almost always, perhaps making the wrong measurements. The fact is that the XT2 has problems and it is desirable to be resolved because they are not normal things of little importance.

The XT2 is the twelfth camera that I use and is the first one with this problem.

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I am almost ready to switch to Fuji (just collecting money) and hopefully get one within few weeks. But as I read topic and I have one question.

It is clear that many report that fuji slightly underexpose raw files. But knowing that it can be compensate during shot (in post means amplifying noise)

What I think is more important question is how fuji expose against others.

 

What I mean:

* two cameras: fuji and other,

* full manual mode on both: the same aperture, the same shutter speed, the same iso (no settings like DRxxx or similar, just pure manual)

 

Is such case both images (RAWs, not baked jpegs) should look very, very similar in terms of brightness – if not it means that ISO is “treated” in different way.

 

How is it? Does fuji produce darker raw in same manual settings than others?

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