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Fuji and Red Dot Flare issue


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HI all,


I am wondering if there has been improvements in this area when shooting directly into the sun at smaller apertures? I think this is true for most mirrorless cameras, BTW, as I've seen it with my Sony A7 as well. Though Sony apparently tried to address this issue more in their newer models.  While all mirrorless and even some DSLRs may suffer from this to varying degrees, I think some exhibit these artifacts more severely than others. Here is an example from Fuji X-E1 @ f/22:


 


Fuji-X-Flare-Ghosting-Issue-960x640.jpg


 


Here is the article describing the problem:  https://photographylife.com/fuji-x-trans-flare-ghosting-issue


Anyone test this with their newer Fujis like the X-Pro2? The reason I ask is that I enjoy shooting into the sun. Here is a shot I took with my Canon 5DII @ f/22 which handled direct sunlight much better than my Sony A7:


 


14Sep14_4953a6-L.jpg


--


Thanks,


Derek


Edited by dereksurfs
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It can never be a camera thing, at the very most it is a lens thing.

 

Some lenses might be more prone than others to produce flares. Shooting directly in the sun is asking for troubles at so many levels. But if you like it... .

 

While this is a common initial perception, that it always the lens, it can in fact also be an issue within the camera itself.  If you read the article I referenced it describes this phenomenon in more detail:

 

"Proof that it is not lens reflections:

It is normal for any lens to produce ghosting and flares when they are directed at bright sources of light. It happens due to internal reflections occurring within the lens. However, these reflections vary from one lens to another and they certainly vary by focal length. In the case of the Fuji X lenses, they each show different tolerances to ghosting and flare, but those optical characteristics are recorded separately from the pattern ghosting that I demonstrated in the very first image. Take another look at that same image and notice that the magenta / green ghosts from the lens actually show up from the center to the right of the image frame. The “rainbow” patterns surrounding the sun have nothing to do with those ghosts and those are coming from another source. Considering that the pattern is repetitive in a square box, I think that it is coming from the X-Trans sensor. Probably has to do with microlenses on the surface of the sensor that are very prone to reflections. Since the light is falling at extreme angles to the surface of the sensor when it passes through a small aperture opening, the angle of light is most likely the cause of such microlens reflections. Interestingly, this effect is minimized when the sun is in the center of the frame, as demonstrated below (shot with the Fuji 27mm f/2.8 lens at f/11)."

https://photographylife.com/fuji-x-trans-flare-ghosting-issue

Edited by dereksurfs
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A sensor is a optical device in itself and has to be treated for reflexes in order to cope with it, so there might be a slight influence of the sensor but the most important one comes from the lens.

 

Change the lens and the flare changes.

 

Once you've chosen a system, hopefully for all kinds of other more meaningful reasons, you will have to work with what the system is. The treatment of any Fuji sensor is “ sui generis”, if you prefer Nikon or Canon or Sony, more power to you.

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You are just showing pictures of lenses with lots of elements,  placed in an extreme situation where any lens and sensor will produce flares of some sort. I am not sure what you are trying to show. 

 

That Fuji sensors and lenses are prone to flaring? They are what they are and I doubt many shoot in the sun as you seem to do. If you like that you’ve got the wrong camera. Best of luck with you other cameras.

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Um, did you even bother to read the article?   Fuji admitted there is a problem with their bodies and flare, not just with lenses.  I think you are still stuck on the lens idea for some reason. But that's not what you are seeing here. Fuji did try to fix it in subsequent bodies

 

In addition, here is another recent thread from Fuji shooters detailing a similar problem.  I'm not just making this stuff up:

http://www.fujix-forum.com/threads/x-pro2-strange-effect-in-a-heavily-back-lit-shot.54047/

 

Many photographers do shoot into the sun BTW, including Fuji owners. Fortunately for me, its just a hobby.  

Edited by dereksurfs
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I did.

 

Anecdotical at best, poorly made pseudo research, and in any case, ultimately Fuji’s sensor is fuji’s sensor.

 

If you like it you do, if you don’t you don’t. Shooting orthogonally in the sun is not common practice, if you are not alone that only means that you are not the only person who likes that.

 

But it isn’t, by all means, common, its a freak way to photograph which we all know can result in the given examples.

Edited by milandro
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I did this shot just a few days ago - 18-55 f11 and I can't say the image is suffering...

 

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precisely, unlike a specious argument .

 

For our multilingual audience...

 

"specious

adjective

a specious argumentplausible but wrongseemingly correctmisleadingdeceptivefalsefallaciousunsoundcasuisticsophistic."

Edited by milandro
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I did this shot just a few days ago - 18-55 f11 and I can't say the image is suffering...

 

attachicon.gifDSCF2781_s.jpg

 

Yes, I have seen some nice shots with the sun under certain conditions. Very nice shot, BTW.  In the article, shooting through trees and other objects is one of the workarounds he recommends.  Using wider apertures also diminishes the effect.

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precisely, unlike a specious argument .

 

Dude, I didn't come here to argue which you seem to want to do for whatever ridiculous reason.  I don't know?  Arguing about gear is stupid!!!  So please, drop it.  I'm merely asking if others are still having problems with shooting into the sun which even Fuji admits was a problem as have other shooters as well.  

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Sir, I didn’t “ dude” you, hence, please stay decent, polite and correct.

 

Your argument is specious and poorly presented with not science behind it other than anecdotes. In any case Fuj is what Fuji is, if you don’t like it, for whatever reason you don’t. Have it your way. 

Edited by milandro
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Sir, I didn’t “ dude” you, hence, please stay decent, polite and correct.

 

Your argument is specious and poorly presented with not science behind it other than anecdotes. In any case Fuj is what Fuji is, if you don’t like it, for whatever reason you don’t. Have it your way. 

 

Ok, Sir, the fact that you are calling Fuji's own admittance to an obvious problem as well as countless other Fuji photographer as anecdotal is laughable at best.  But please, you are free to believe as you wish.  I only ask that you contribute to the question regarding the issue of sensors and not trying to derail the thread into trivial debates.  If you do not believe real flare can come from a camera then great!  Happy shooting!!!

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I wonder if Horsie-blad is aware of this "problem". Doesn't look like much of a flange distance to me.

 

https://www.engadget.com/2016/06/22/hasselblad-x1d/

 

Pic taken off the same site.

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  • 1 month later...

Have managed to catch that red flare. 27mm at f16

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi, to reply to the original question: yes, the fuji system has this issue. At least for what the xt-10 is concerned because that's the only fuji camera I have so far. Perhaps other systems have it as well.

My canon cameras never showed this kind of red flare. Or at least not in this disturbing amount.

"Solutions":

- block the sun with a branch, cloud etc

- reduce apperture

- don't shoot into the sun.

But this are all impractical as they basically mean "shoot something else".

In the cases I now encounter this problem I take another shot with my finger in front of the sun and blend the images together in photoshop. Highly impractical as well but at least I get a useable shot.

I do hope the new sensor doesn't have this problem.

On the other hand it seems to have a new problem with direct sun: http://www.mirrorlessons.com/2016/07/25/fujifilm-x-pro2-grid-artefacts/ I hope this doesn't show up with every shot with the sun in it. So far it doesn't seem like that.

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Yes, it happens to me when trying to create sun stars. X-E2 + <most any lens> but wide angle tends to be worse.  Also the more you stop down the worse it seems to be which is too bad as stopping down also produces bigger sun stars.  Fortunately, I can live without them.

 

For the record, I would sometimes have similar issues with my Nikon DLSR back before Fuji just not as pronounced.

 

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  • 5 weeks later...

Frankly I LOVE the effect it provides. This one taken on the X-T2 the other day with a 10-24 f4 OIS lens directly into the sun. if this is all it does i'm not the least bit worried. I love the effect frankly.

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When you overexpose part of an image by for example 5 EV the result is that you also multiply any aberrations and distortions generated by that part of the image by 100 times or more. Visibility is inevitable in any current camera since exposure range is far outside what any of them can handle.

 

The best approach is to underexpose and use the extra EV or 2 of shadow detail the Fuji gives you compared to most, because shadows do not have to be low noise to look good. The star can be enhanced in post without guilt since it never was real anyway and is now clipped at 100%.

 

I use trees like mdm or lampposts etc.

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This is what I mean: start under exposed and manipulate in post. The dark shot is 100% virgin except for the crop and resize, The other is "abused" in ACDSee Pro 10 - I have not played with the RAW files yet.

 

You see only one color artifact lower center with this lens, that it!

 

X-Pro2 with XF 18-135 WR. BTW the 18-135 is highly underrated; what it does not have in ultimate sharpness it has in everything else.

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...

You are just showing pictures of lenses with lots of elements,  placed in an extreme situation where any lens and sensor will produce flares of some sort. I am not sure what you are trying to show. 

 

That Fuji sensors and lenses are prone to flaring? They are what they are and I doubt many shoot in the sun as you seem to do. If you like that you’ve got the wrong camera. Best of luck with you other cameras.

Sorry but you're being very very ignorant. Frankly, i'm wondering what you're shooting anyway, or at what level. Shooting into the sun is absolutely common practice for a variety of professional photography. Landscape, Outdoors, Tourism ... oh my. do i have to explain it? Never seen any commercials of this sort? Whereas regarding the brands, say Canon vs Fuji: the canon 17mm TSE for instance, creates a very clean and beautiful sun "star". Incomparable to the Fuji 10-24. Now i landed in this thread, because my 10-24 on the XT-2 creates lots of colorful dots, pretty bad. In very obvious repeating patterns. Nothing like may Canon 16-35 or 17. You know what? Ask around stock agencies or photogs, and they will tell you that "sun in the photo" sells A LOT better for certain motifs. Not to folks like you, of course. But please stop blathering. Dont ridicule photographers that do shoot into the sun!

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