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so many cameras, how to decide?


Mevl
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Hello Guys

 

I'm switching from Nikon to Mirrorless camera. I'm considering xpro 2. 

I'm wondering what is the difference between Pro and XT cameras ? The specs looks same. and according to rumours, 

XT2 is on its way with same chip as Pro 2.

 

I need a new camera by October for trip to Cuba. Planning to travel light, 16mm 1.4 and 35mm. I'm interested in street and landscape.

 

thank you for any advice.

 

Mevl

 

 

 

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Go to a store and play the X-Pro and X-T.  Only you know which one you'll enjoy shooting the most.

 

I know there is so much more to the Pro then the OVF, but that is what I love most about my Pro1.  It's why I reach for it more and more over the XT-1.

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Unless the newest improvements are of real consequence to you and your photography, save yourself money on the body and buy lenses which you will be able to use on generation 3 even better than generation 2.

 

Personally I have the X-T1 and X-E2  and I am going to skip X Pro 2 and X-T2, then, who knows, we shall see if I’m still alive by then! You could buy now a X Pro 1 or  X-E2 body for peanuts and take great pictures.

 

IF and when you’ll ever need more than that you will see later on what to do.

 

16, 23, 35, 56 or 120mm ( when it comes out  and if you have the money)

 

Or.... keep it ultra simple and go 16-55mm +  any long zoom you may need or can afford.

 

Cuba in October? Hurricane season... maybe windy?

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Millandro speaks wisely, however I would take what Milandro says and just take one step further.

 

If you enjoy shooting the Pro, wait for the Pro2, if you like the X-T, I see no reason to wait on the T2 (but we don't know what the T2 will be yet either).

 

From what I've heard of the Pro2, it's a vast improvement over the Pro1, but not so much over the T1.  The processing power alone on the Pro2 is worth the upgrade in my opinion.  The Pro1 was the second X-Series camera produced so it desperately needed this upgrade.

 

Just my opinion.

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go to a camera shop and see what body type you prefer.

 

If you prefer the feel of the X-Pro/rangefinder camera then if the OVF is important to you, by all means go for the X-Pro 2, if the latest and greatest is not so important, the X-Pro 1 is a great camera and available pretty cheap deals in UK a few weeks ago, you got an X-Pro 1 + 18mm F/2, and 27mm F/2.8 for £500.

 

If you prefer the rangefinder style but OVF is not important, you may want to consider the XE-2(S) newer feature compared to the X-Pro 1, significantly cheaper than the X-Pro 2.

If you prefer the DSLR style, and don't want to wait for the XT-2, but don't want to spend a lot on an XT-1, that may be about to be replaced, you may want to consider the XT-10.

 

Only you can decide

 

good luck

Edited by Tikcus
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Go to a store and play the X-Pro and X-T.  Only you know which one you'll enjoy shooting the most.

 

I know there is so much more to the Pro then the OVF, but that is what I love most about my Pro1.  It's why I reach for it more and more over the XT-1.

I live in a country where there are not camera that many camera stores. I visited few, but they are not allowing people to hold the cameras. At first I wanted to buy Leica Q, but was not allowed to play with it. Sony is the only Exception, I could insert my card, and took photos in the store. Fuji brand is not that popular here. I always have to buy online or go to US.

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Unless the newest improvements are of real consequence to you and your photography, save yourself money on the body and buy lenses which you will be able to use on generation 3 even better than generation 2.

 

Personally I have the X-T1 and X-E2  and I am going to skip X Pro 2 and X-T2, then, who knows, we shall see if I’m still alive by then! You could buy now a X Pro 1 or  X-E2 body for peanuts and take great pictures.

 

IF and when you’ll ever need more than that you will see later on what to do.

 

16, 23, 35, 56 or 120mm ( when it comes out  and if you have the money)

 

Or.... keep it ultra simple and go 16-55mm +  any long zoom you may need or can afford.

 

Cuba in October? Hurricane season... maybe windy?

Thanks for the info. 

I'm buying 16mm 1.4 WR for sure. (My favorite lens on Nikon was 12-24 f4) second one possibly 35mm,  

I do not want to buy zooms anymore. 

 

Xpro cameras looking great as they do not have any advertisements on them.

 

An Cuba in October is apparently really great time to visit. Not that many tourists, and if Hurricane even better.

Edited by Mevl
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They don’t allow people to hold the cameras in your country?

 

I am very sorry for you.

 

Peculiar to say the least! 

 

How about shoes or clothes or a couch ? I suppose you are allowed to try those on or seat in it before buying? So why not allowing holding a camera?

 

Once the camera is used as a display item they cannot sell it as a new camera anyway even if untouched... or do they?

 

The 16 must be a good choice and the 35 will be too, personally I would think the gap needs also a 23 right in the middle.

 

As for not wanting any zooms, well, I’ve just tried the 23 against the 18-55 at 23 and you will be really hard pressed to tell the difference!

 

But to each his own!

 

I am not sure of what you mean by “ Xpro cameras looking great as they do not have any advertisements on them” I think that you might mean that the brandname on the cameras is not very big?

 

I am not bothered by that! Nor am I bothered by how big it says Kia or Mercedes on a car and whether it does have a badge or not at all. I also don’t rip labels off my clothes. I don’t do it because they are cheap and I might be ashamed of them nor would I, at my age, show off, parading with brands of any type, clothes, cars or cameras.

 

It is a non issue.

 

I don’t understand what’s badly designed in the Fuji site? Ok, it is not particularly entertaining or interactive ( although the part where you can play with all their lenses and compare them with each other is fun!)  but it is very informative nonetheless.

 

http://fujifilmxmount.com/comparison/en/test-our-lenses/

 

Here all the cameras

 

http://www.fujifilm.com/products/digital_cameras/

 

and here a particular popular model of the moment.

 

 

http://www.fujifilm.com/products/digital_cameras/x/fujifilm_x_pro2/

 

Plenty of pictures, data and information.

 

What is it that you are missing? Stories about cameras?

 

Here, plenty of entertainment

 

http://fujifilm-x.com/en/x-stories/

 

And yes, not many tourists might be nice, but hurricanes are not, especially for a population living in constant fear for their lives. But yes, you may get some dramatic pictures.

Edited by milandro
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You could always try a rental service then.  Not sure what country you are in, but there has to be some sort of rental service around there.  That would give you at least a few days with the cameras too.  An even better opportunity to get to know the items you might be buying.

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Unfortunately camera rental hasn’t the same diffusion in Europe as it has in the U.S. and if there are services like these at all... they might only offer the most popular strains of cameras and I am afraid that that hardly ever includes Fuji.

 

Even shops which carry Fuji don’t necessarily rent it as, for example, my favorite shop 

 

http://www.kamera-express.nl/over-ons/verhuurservice1/

 

In OP’s situation, who’s from a country where apparently the shop won’t even touch the camera which they sell, renting seems to me an extremely unlikely scenario, but who knows!...

 


Tell me about it, it's a nightmare if I need to have a very specific lens for a task and not able to find any shop that would rent it. I have to resort to asking other pros if they would be willing to lend me the lens...

 
 
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That's a shame.  I just tried to find out how to rent in Europe, which I'd think would be easy, but I can't find anything.  Of course Google can see I'm in Texas so even though I'm looking for something, it's trying to steer me toward US companies.

 

Is Fuji's rental program up and running yet?  I'd assume it'll be worldwide...Maybe...

 

 

However, I'm having just as much trouble trying to figure out how you sell something you won't let people even touch.

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Fuji and Europe... If you go to the consumer electronics retail chains, they often have no fuji at all or just one X-M with the XC16-50 attached. One time I asked if I could have a look at other lenses. They told me "there are no other lenses" and tried to sell a non-Fuji bridge camera to me.

Then, luckily I thought, someone told me about a camera store with no web presence that should have Fuji stuff, just 60 km from where I live. I drove there, and they really had Fuji cameras and lenses in stock. If you want to pay €200 more for EVERY lens, no bargaining possible, that's your way to go.

I think purchasing online is the only reasonable alternative in Europe. Just order it, and if you don't like what you bought make use of the two-week return policy. But even there you'll usually pay Fuji's official retail price, while all other makes are on sale due to price war.

Edited by quincy
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How about shoes or clothes or a couch ? I suppose you are allowed to try those on or seat in it before buying? So why not allowing holding a camera?

 

-You can sit on couch in stores before you buy and they also let you try clothes ;) but cameras is another story ;) Most of the time they are behind glass or in windows. Resellers do not open boxes with expensive cameras and if they do they will not allow you to take photos, because they want to sell them. That is why I shop online.

 

 Brandname bothers me the most. I hate it on Nikon, and that is why I will not buy Sony a7. On Mercedes you have only Logo ;) It is just matter of preference. I guess I'm boring.  :D 

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You could always try a rental service then.  Not sure what country you are in, but there has to be some sort of rental service around there.  That would give you at least a few days with the cameras too.  An even better opportunity to get to know the items you might be buying.

I wish we had such a possibilities in Europe. It is expensive here, 21 % goes to state and yet we do not have service like that. 

If something brakes we have troubles to get it repaired. My nikon needed service, I had to ship it to Netherlands. and it took them 3 moths to repair my camera. Sony has the worst service ever, they left my laptop sit in their wear house 2 months and did not repair it at all.

How is Fuji's service btw?

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However, I'm having just as much trouble trying to figure out how you sell something you won't let people even touch.

- we have to follow forums, and read as much info as possible. Problem start, when companies website have information like this.

Sample photos are simulated images.

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Fuji and Europe... If you go to the consumer electronics retail chains, they often have no fuji at all or just one X-M with the XC16-50 attached. One time I asked if I could have a look at other lenses. They told me "there are no other lenses" and tried to sell a non-Fuji bridge camera to me.

Then, luckily I thought, someone told me about a camera store with no web presence that should have Fuji stuff, just 60 km from where I live. I drove there, and they really had Fuji cameras and lenses in stock. If you want to pay €200 more for EVERY lens, no bargaining possible, that's your way to go.

I think purchasing online is the only reasonable alternative in Europe. Just order it, and if you don't like what you bought make use of the two-week return policy. But even there you'll usually pay Fuji's official retail price, while all other makes are on sale due to price war.

- for some reason there is a new rule regarding return policy. Including Amazon.de you must pay return shipping and fees are calculated for handling.

I bought a lock from pacsafe (23 euro), but it is too big. I wanted to return it and Amazon calculated 13 for shipping, and 8 euro for handling. Great !!  

I'm looking at this website purnimadigital.com to buy camera. Where do you shop?

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That's a shame.  I just tried to find out how to rent in Europe, which I'd think would be easy, but I can't find anything.  Of course Google can see I'm in Texas so even though I'm looking for something, it's trying to steer me toward US companies.

 

Is Fuji's rental program up and running yet?  I'd assume it'll be worldwide...Maybe...

 

 

However, I'm having just as much trouble trying to figure out how you sell something you won't let people even touch.

In Europe there is not a strong market. Even Leica's main market is China and USA. No certified service all is shipped somewhere else. 

Where do you shop in Texas? BH photo? 

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In Europe there is not a strong market. Even Leica's main market is China and USA. No certified service all is shipped somewhere else. 

Where do you shop in Texas? BH photo? 

I shop at B&H, yes.  Just bought some stuff from there actually, but my camera and lenses I buy from a couple of local stores.  Arlington Camera, or Fort Worth Camera.

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@Mevl, perhaps you don’t need to answer all in a different post (unless you are trying to push your post count to reach mine  :D ) you can do this in one post and refer to the person that you are addressing by  placing an @ (at) before the moniker as I did with you, this makes easier reading.

 

I should imagine that you are somewhere in Central or Eastern Europe and that the way shops treat customers ( by not allowing them to handle the goods) is he heritage of the past which sooner or later will be abandoned.

 

You government like mine in the Netherlands gets 21% VAT ( and a lot more in all sorts of other taxes) but this has nothing to do with the presence of a rental system for Fuji or not.

 

It has simply to do with the customer’s base and commercial turnaround. If there would be a general call for this people would have already started doing it.

 

You can expect that a company would get the buying price in renting camera or lenses in 6 months to a year. 

 

The risk involved, even if covered by insurance, is very high but you have an even higher commercial risk.

 

People tend to rent only the newest cameras and the newest model of lens. Say you’ve stocked a X-E2 when it came out. Few months later the X-T1 comes on the market and all of a sudden nobody wants to rent the X-E2 anymore, so you have to sell it.

 

Did they make the entire cost of the camera plus a return in the few months when the camera was the best of the line? Maybe, but only if there are many customers.

 

Same goes for the lenses.

 

You are a shop and you are offering for rent the very expensive 56mm but now Fuji feels that they need to put out the APD version, so nobody wants to hire the “ normal” version unless you discount the rental a lot.

 

And so on.

 

Countries where renting is very much more diffused can have this for all brands.

 

In my experience, our shops in the Netherlands ( a densely populate country for its size but with many , many shops) with 17 million living here and only very few using camera and even less Fuji users, prefer sticking to Canon and NIkon, or otherwise the price of the rental would have to be really high.

 

 

@quincy

 

Our shops in the Netherlands are really carrying the whole range or most of the range of Fuji products which doesn’t mean that It might not be true that somewhere in Europe the situation that you are describing might be true, nevertheless availability of camera and lenses is NOT our problem when it comes to rentals.

 

It is purely the market base which is too small!

 

Kop_lichter.gif

Edited by milandro
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Let me get back to cameras themselves you give you my personal opinion what I use for what and what I think the advantages or disadvantages with specific models are. You can then think about whether any of that applies to you and whether it is something you have already considered or haven't yet but shouldn't.

 

Image Quality

 

Let's get that out of the way first, unless you regularly remove 30% of the pixels through cropping, you aren't going to see an improvement with the 24MP over the 16MP sensors. 

 

There are minuscule differences between ISO performance, detail resolution and dynamic range that are completely and utterly irrelevant for day to day use. Even blowing up a 16 and a 24MP photo to 1m x 1.5m print, you'll be hard pressed to see a difference. The lens choice makes more of a difference than the pixel count.

 

The additional Acros film simulation that everybody raves about is awesome, but again irrelevant if you want to truly get the best out of your images and therefore process raws with strong local exposure adjustments like gradients or other tools in Lightroom that allow you to widely change exposure in part of your photo. The raw just has more data than the JPEG and while the JPEGs actually do have an astounding leverage, they aren't as versatile as the raws.

 

Weight

 

By and large, the weight gain of a 100g to 150g or so from one end of the spectrum (X-Pro2/X-T1) to the other (X-T10/X-E2) are again, completely irrelevant. The weight is in the number and type of lenses you are planning to carry. There are the (comparatively) huge pro zooms (16-55, 50-140, 100-400) which are very large and heavy for mirrorless camera lenses, there are the mid-sized, but very, very good and fast lenses (16, 23, 56, 90) that are really on par with any L lens I've ever tried and there are the compacts, which are also pretty much in their own weight/price/quality class (14, both 35s, 60, 18-55). 

 

Depending on your shooting style you may or may not know what focal lengths are working for you. If you do know, pick the ones you know you'll like and just consider weight and size as well when picking between close contenders (like 14 vs. 16, 18 vs. 23, 56 vs. 60). 

 

Again, you determine the weight and size more by how many lenses you pack and which line of lenses you pick. The camera body is nearly irrelevant there.

 

Camera Size

 

What a lot of people miss is that the small camera bodies of mirrorless cameras have unique challenges in terms of haptic and ergonomics. Hands and fingers and thumbs have a certain size and need a certain space to operate comfortably. Personally I find the X-T1 layout quite cramped although I get along fine with it nowadays, I wish it was a little bit bigger and had the general layout of the new X-Pro2 but with a grip even more pronounced and deeper than the X-T1 has. 

 

I use my X-T1 with a permanently attached ArcaSwiss plate from Really Right Stuff, that gives the camera the necessary height so I can grip it comfortably with my full hand and don't have fingers hanging out in the air. The X-Pro2 doesn't need that, but for me it needs a real front grip. The X-E2 is awesome with the Fuji Metal Hand Grip, the same is true for the X100T, I have not tried the X-T10 with a grip. 

 

Quick impressions:

  • X-T1 – very good for me with the ArcaSwiss plate permanently attached
  • X-Pro1/2 – very good, but gets a bit large with the extra grip attached which I want as the camera's front grip isn't great
  • X-E2 – great, but only with the Fuji Metal Hand Grip, without that, I dislike the handling of the camera
  • X100T – great, but only with a Metrocase grip or the Fuji Metal Hand Grip, without these I dislike the handling of the camera even more than X-E2
  • X-T10 – too small for me, might be okay with additional handgrip, although I find the body overall to be too small

So, pick your poison. Pick a small body with the potential need of adding a bulky grip, or pick a larger not quite ergonomic model that you have to make really bulky if it doesn't for you without a grip or pick a midsized model, add a grip or not. 

 

In daily use the size differences don't matter to people seeing you with the camera, don't think you are more or less conspicuous with a smaller camera, certainly as soon as you add a bulky lens like the 16mm that is completely gone.

 

Body Style

 

I find the SLR style bodies work better for me as I am left eye dominant and I keep my face slightly angled to the camera with my nose not touching the rear screen of my X-T1 at all but being in contact with my right thumb sometimes. No big deal, there is enough space there for me to work comfortably. 

 

Over time I have trained myself to be able to shoot with my right eye as well, but the rangefinder style does have some downsides for me. The EVFs are smaller, I love the huge EVF on the X-T1. And often enough I just pick up the camera put it my face and have smashed my nose against the screen because I put it to my left eye. Remember, left eye dominant here. Never a problem with the X-T1/X-T10.

 

Also, on the X100T as well as the X-Pro series, one of the big issues I have is that I get fingerprints on the front element of the viewfinder which makes the view slightly "fuzzy" or "milky". The effect is actually quite pronounced which surprised me. I don't have the problem much since I added a quite big grip to the X100T, but before that it would happen ALL the time. Very annoying. 

 

My personal expectation is that the X-T2 will get a little bigger to deal better with heat management when 4k video arrives. It will pick up most of the internal changes of the X-Pro2, except the viewfinder of course and will hopefully go to an ever better EVF panel with higher resolution. The increased body size will make a stronger distinction between X-T10 and X-T2 than there is today, which personally I find acceptable as it allows for a more ergonomically sound button and grip placement. 

 

X-T1 vs. X-T2

 

The difference between the two will not be nearly as big as the differences between X-Pro1 and X-Pro2. X-Pro1 has been around for four years, it's a first generation product. X-T1 is a second (or even 2.5 if you account for the not-quite-there X100S) generation product. Going from second generation to third generation won't be as much of a step as from first to third. Therefore, it's likely not a step that will bring lots of benefits for users of current cameras, but can be an interesting one if you can wait out the release of the X-T2 and pick the then new camera generation.

 

As mentioned above, image quality won't matter too much for still images, video will likely be a larger distinction if that matters to you. Personally I find 4k video in cameras like the ones we are discussing here, completely useless as the resolution increase brings too many downsides with it: long processing times in post, lots of storage needed, heat management in camera, not many places where you can actually watch 4k video. 

 

Personally I think if you want a camera for video, there are better choices in non-Fuji land.

 

AF performance and general speed will be increased, but overall it won't be a revelation compared to what people have been used to on DSLRs for nearly a decade now. It's great to get, but not worth the upgrade from X-T1 to X-T2, again, just my personal opinion.

 

X-Pro2 vs. other X

 

Given it has the latest tech if the body style suits you and you actually like the OVF (I don't), there is no question, the X-Pro2 is a great camera. But it is kind of a geek camera with the OVF that isn't really great with a lens wider than 18mm or longer than 35mm. The captured frame is either bigger than what you see in the OVF or the frame visible is a really small square in the middle, even with the OVF magnification. I wish Fuji had added a third magnification level to allow 60 and/or 90mm lenses to use more than a small area of the OVF. 

 

Other than that I think the X-Pro2 has the best button and control layout by far from all the X cameras. Part of this is due to available space on the larger body, another part is a good balance between physical controls for the full exposure triangle (aperture, shutter speed, ISO) while leaving other functions to dedicated buttons or Fn buttons. The X-T1 brings it a bit too far with suboptimal implementation on a slightly too small body for the number of controls, the X-E and X-T10 style bodies have less dedicated controls again. So overall, I'd give the nod for buttons and controls to the X-Pro2 and hope that Fuji will bring some of that to the X-T2. Although I won't hold my breath there as I believe they'll still end up with suboptimal implementation and too many controls for the body size. But okay, that's something you can get used to.

 

Regarding sensor and processor, I believe the newer processor gives a bigger gain than the new sensor. It speeds up everything the camera does and makes it more snappy and the new firmware and menu styling allows for some more intuitive handling. While the sensor is nice, it's no revelation compared to what has been around in competing cameras for a while, it merely brings Fuji up to par in terms of APS-C resolution with other manufacturers. Which, by itself, is a good thing, but I don't consider it crucial. The speed increase of the processor is much more crucial, especially to owners of the first generation X-Pro1 or X-E1 cameras than anything the sensor does.

 

Packed Space Requirements

 

One thing often overlooked is the requirement in packed space. An X-Pro2 packs actually slightly more compact than an X-T1. This might only affect people like me with a certain style/size in bags, but it's something to consider. The X-T1 "EVF hump" in addition with the ArcaSwiss base makes the X-T1 not fit in one of my preferred camera bags (Billingham Hadley Small) the way I want it, meaning sideways. Sure I can squeeze it in, bulging the bag, but I don't consider that a great solution. Therefore the Hadley Small is used for X100T and sometimes X-E2, but never for X-T1 based kits. I use a larger Hadley Pro for the X-T1 kit and like that sized bag for some other reasons as well. It really just depends on what I'm doing.

 

And a big one (for me): Eye Point

 

I frigging hate that Fuji has put such a small rear element on X100 and X-Pro series cameras. It means you have to get your eye really close to the viewfinders rear opening to see the full frame. With my Silhouette glasses that's not possible for me. With my other style glasses it works but I still have to "smash" the glasses against the rubber eye relief to see the viewfinder properly and I plain dislike that. The much longer eyepoint on X-T1 and X-E2 works a lot better for me. Especially the X-T1 with the large magnification, big rear element and long eye point combined with the long eye cup (accessory) is a joy to use even with glasses. I tend to use the rear display of the X100T much more than on any other camera with a viewfinder I have owned so far, plain because the viewfinder doesn't work well for me. 

 

Long term outlook (pure guesswork)

 

My guess is that Fuji will distinguish the bigger and more expensive bodies over time more from the smaller and less expensive bodies than they have so far. Just think about it: the difference between X-T10 and X-T1 are basically weather sealing, larger EVF and more physical controls. That's it. But the X-T1 costs nearly twice as much. 

 

It could be that Fuji sticks to 16MP sensors and other cheaper components for the time being while the X-T2 and X-Pro2 will stay ahead for some time. That could mean software features as well as hardware features. It's the difficulty for a small company to work a market with quite a wide span in terms of technical requirements, price desires and overall hype for new things. 

 

 

So, maybe the above rant helped a little bit. I had some time sitting in a hotel waiting for my flight to leave, so I was able to write this all down. Whether it applies to you or not – only you can decide.

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@milandro -got it. ;) 

 

 

@cug

Excellent, this is what I needed. Now, I understand much better. It is difficult to visualise the system just from the internet.

 

-I will be getting only 16mm and 35mm, zooms I had with my Nikon Dx 70-300, 18-70, 12-24 Tokina, and basically I used only wide angle Tokina, filter vignetting caused I shot around 14, and 16mm most of the time. 

 

I do not care about the video, most likely, go hero will have 8K very soon, and lets see what iphone 7 will bring. 

 

I have tested a dealer and have an offer 1500 euro for xpro 2. Which is quite correct in comparison xt1 in 2012.

 

-I like your prediction, Completely agree with them.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Guest thiswayup

I have never used them, but lensesforhire.co.uk, rent both X-Pro1 and XT-1 and numerous fujinon lenses.

Prices seem reasonable

 

That's the most useful post I've read. Thank you!

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