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Patrick FR

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because a focal plane shutter ( curtain) wouldn’t synchronize a flash with all shutter speeds as a leaf shutter does and, for the same reason, a maximum synchronization up to 1/125sec. would be considered a limitation in that respect. But a leaf shutter cannot go as fast as a focal plane shutter, so that has, in itself, a different set of limitations too.

 

Of course, when you have experienced working with the Pentax 6x7 which synchronized only up to 1/30sec ( and had only two lenses with leaf shutter  the 90 LS and 165 LS) one learns that there are workarounds but, traditionally, only wedding photographers ( which back them was not one of the main things to do for most photographers as it appears to have become now)seem to feel this limitation.

 

The Pentax 645 had also a curtain shutter with synchro to 1/60  and two lenses ( if I remember well) with a leaf shutter.

 

Of course now many use high sensitivity and want to synchronize the flash with fast shutter speeds, hence the criticism. Different style. Not mine.

 

Two days ago I was discussing with a friend and colleague the thing that some people seriously discuss the fact that Fuji isn’t very good (?) at ISO above 3200.

 

We, both old school photographers, found this utterly ridiculous. 

 

Different way to think, old school and new school. 

Edited by milandro
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Haha yes for me it's purely academic as well. I can't imagine loads of people buying these. On the other hand, every year there are more millionaires  :P

 

 

Two days ago I was discussing with a friend and colleague the thing that some people seriously discuss the fact that Fuji isn’t very good (?) at ISO above 3200.

We, both old school photographers, found this utterly ridiculous.

 

Of course Fuji is great if you compare it to old technology but there were some problems with waxy skin on x-trans 2 sensors. X-Trans 1 & 3 don't have this issue though.

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because a focal plane shutter ( curtain) wouldn’t synchronize a flash with all shutter speeds as a leaf shutter does and, for the same reason, a maximum synchronization up to 1/125sec. would be considered a limitation in that respect. But a leaf shutter cannot go as fast as a focal plane shutter, so that has, in itself, a different set of limitations too.

 

Of course, when you have experienced working with the Pentax 6x7 which synchronized only up to 1/30sec ( and had only two lenses with leaf shutter  the 90 LS and 165 LS) one learns that there are workarounds but, traditionally, only wedding photographers ( which back them was not one of the main things to do for most photographers as it appears to have become now)seem to feel this limitation.

 

The Pentax 645 had also a curtain shutter with synchro to 1/60  and two lenses ( if I remember well) with a leaf shutter.

 

Of course now many use high sensitivity and want to synchronize the flash with fast shutter speeds, hence the criticism. Different style. Not mine.

 

Two days ago I was discussing with a friend and colleague the thing that some people seriously discuss the fact that Fuji isn’t very good (?) at ISO above 3200.

 

We, both old school photographers, found this utterly ridiculous. 

 

Different way to think, old school and new school. 

Thanks for shedding light on the subject. I guess old school thinking was one of the reason why I can't fathom why these were disadvantages.

 

I guess some photographers needs very high sync speeds for fill in flash during daylight photography with flash. Thankfully, I can still work with reflectors and ND filters.

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well, there were times when you had some real problems when using a flash in a situation where there would be enough ambient light to create a double exposure.

 

Which is the reason that Pentax came up with those LS lenses but a leaf shutter is otherwise limited because you can never have the shutter speeds so high as a curtain can achieve,

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Of course Fuji is great if you compare it to old technology but there were some problems with waxy skin on x-trans 2 sensors. X-Trans 1 & 3 don't have this issue though.

 

 

Never understood this “ problem” too... the so called problem occurred only above ISO 1600, which, if you ask me, is a weird sensitivity to shoot portraits ( especially if combined with the modern religious pursuit of the Bokeh!)

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Never understood this “ problem” too... the so called problem occurred only above ISO 1600, which, if you ask me, is a weird sensitivity to shoot portraits ( especially if combined with the modern religious pursuit of the Bokeh!)

 

I agree with you Milandro, there's a difference between what people want and actually do with it. I can imagine you can have this problem when shooting casual evening shots or street photography or any other uncontrolled low light situation. But they fixed this "problem" in the x-trans 3 anyway, so no problems in the future. 

Edited by Sluw
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Yes, it's a jpeg engine only problem.

 

Thanks for clearing that.

 

I guess jpeg iso 200 - 1600 and raw iso 1600 and above then. Since iso 1600 and above aren't really ideal scenario for critical portraiture even though I can understand the frustrations some may have.

 

I'd imagine some may argue that modern cameras reach iso 104,000 and dare I mention 3 million...... :o

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If you don't see a problem there's no problem  ;)

 

This basically.

 

I've seen it only once, at a wedding where I shot RAW + jpeg, in the hopes of not having to do much post work on the files. It was shot in a dark barn, and my shots without flash were unusable due to the smearing. All the raws and shots with lighting were just fine. I've just shot RAW from that day on with the X100T and X-T1, but on the X-T2, my first impression of the jpeg engine is that it is much improved and now perfectly useable for all occasions.

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I thought that’s precisely what being a photographer was, having a set of skills to operate machines ( cameras and now computers too) and create images.

 

It's been a learning curve....... :)

 

"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, and miles to go before I sleep". Robert Frost.

Edited by Aswald
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It's starting to grow on me especially after reading more about it's functionality. The design sort of make sense but I'm also in the design industry so my outlook on industrial design may be biased. It's a bit straight forward for me. I'm just VERY glad it's small.

 

Can anyone help me with two things?

 

1. Focal Plane shutter (as opposed to Leaf shutter) on Medium format bodies.

2. 1/125th sec Flash sync speed.

 

Why are these two considered a negative attribute of a medium format system.

 

I've only used the Pentax 645 briefly and didn't come away convinced that I needed a medium format camera. Thanks in advance.

Lenses for cameras with focal plane shutters tend to cost less, as they don't have the shutter mechanism. BUT, focal plane shutters are limited in flash sync speed. On 35 mm systems, the fastest sync speeds are 1/250 sec. Because of the bigger sensor that drops to 1/125 sec. You can occasionally get some motion blur at 1/125 sec, but the biggest issue comes from the limitation in adjusting exposure when mixing ambient light with strobes.

 

In a flash exposure, your aperture controls how much the flash adds to the exposure while shutter speed determines how much ambient light is mixed into the exposure. With a focal plane shutter at 1/125 sync, you are pretty limited in how much ambient light you can keep out of the exposure. But with a leaf shutter like in the Hasselblad X1D, which can sync at 1/2000, you can cut the ambient portion of the exposure by four full stops over the Fuji's 1/125. That's huge. It means that you can turn a bright, overexposed sky into a dark deep blue. It means you need less flash power than you'd need otherwise, which is also huge since battery powered strobes are pretty expensive. In fact, the extra cost of leaf shutter lenses is generally made up in savings on the cost of strobes.

 

So, when Fuji announced that their new medium format camera had a focal plane shutter, every photographer throughout the world,whose work involves flash on location, let out a collective scream "Nooooooooo!!!" Fortunately Fuji seems to have indicated that they will make adapters for some third party leaf shutter lenses, and thus it's possible that we could see leaf shutters in some lenses in the future.

Edited by Jlrimages
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Lenses for cameras with focal plane shutters tend to cost less, as they don't have the shutter mechanism. BUT, focal plane shutters are limited in flash sync speed. On 35 mm systems, the fastest sync speeds are 1/250 sec. Because of the bigger sensor that drops to 1/125 sec. You can occasionally get some motion blur at 1/125 sec, but the biggest issue comes from the limitation in adjusting exposure when mixing ambient light with strobes.

 

In a flash exposure, your aperture controls how much the flash adds to the exposure while shutter speed determines how much ambient light is mixed into the exposure. With a focal plane shutter at 1/125 sync, you are pretty limited in how much ambient light you can keep out of the exposure. But with a leaf shutter like in the Hasselblad X1D, which can sync at 1/2000, you can cut the ambient portion of the exposure by four full stops over the Fuji's 1/125. That's huge. It means that you can turn a bright, overexposed sky into a dark deep blue. It means you need less flash power than you'd need otherwise, which is also huge since battery powered strobes are pretty expensive. In fact, the extra cost of leaf shutter lenses is generally made up in savings on the cost of strobes.

 

So, when Fuji announced that their new medium format camera had a focal plane shutter, every photographer throughout the world,whose work involves flash on location, let out a collective scream "Nooooooooo!!!" Fortunately Fuji seems to have indicated that they will make adapters for some third party leaf shutter lenses, and thus it's possible that we could see leaf shutters in some lenses in the future.

 

Thank you. Very clear and detailed explanation. I get the picture now.

 

I guess, this issue exists with other formats too. Perhaps it is more significant as previously most medium format cameras rely on leaf shutters. Would HSS be a possible solution to this issue? Granted HSS itself has issues.

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Aswald said "I guess, this issue exists with other formats too. Perhaps it is more significant as previously most medium format cameras rely on leaf shutters. Would HSS be a possible solution to this issue? Granted HSS itself has issues."

 

Yes, one of the significant differences between medium format and 35 mm based systems is almost total reliance on focal plane shutters in the 35 mm world. There are a few fixed lens cameras that use leaf shutters (Leica Q and Fuji x-100 series as an aps-c example), but all system cameras are focal plane shutter cameras. For them, HSS is the only option.

 

But, HSS is, at best, a partial solution. According to Profoto, their B1 strobe, which supports HSS, loses one stop of flash power for every stop above the flash sync you go. So, if you use the B1's HSS function with the Fuji, to get to 1/1000 sec from Fuji's 1/125 sync speed, you lose three stops of power. That just turned a 500 w/s strobe into a speedlight. By contrast, the Hasselblad X1D, can sync at 1/2000 sec with no loss of power. Yes, leaf shutter lenses are more expensive, but, lighting gear, especially lighting gear that is light and portable, is very expensive. So, for those photographers who use lighting gear on location, the cost of the leaf shutters are well worth the price. It's no more expensive for them, and it cuts down on the bulk that they have to carry on location.

Edited by Jlrimages
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