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No shame in Nikon’s game, Fuji full frame denial


epscott
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You have all heard me say it before. Fuji’s refusal to invade the full frame space is detrimental to the entire brand. Nikon had no fear in moving forward into a space dominated by Fuji. Some could say they did it as a matter of survival. At the end of the day, here we are. Allowing Nikon to take market share takes away R&D money for new Fuji technology. As an owner of all Fuji gear and an investor, I demand more. I want a full frame Fuji camera and so so many others. Stop this nonsensical pearl clutching and get with the times. APS-C Fuji cameras are just not enough for low light photography and medium format and the lenses are out of reach for most consumers. The sweet spot is full frame. There will always be a need for APS-C but that need may not necessarily be satisfied by Fuji. The pic below of the Nikon is from a friend, David Bock. 

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I am sorry but I cannot support the current trend for full frame sensors.

Thankfully one manufacturer is not chasing full frame. I was a Canon and Nikon user. The Canon and Nikon full frame mirrorless cameras are too heavy and expensive which is why I switched to Fuji. Do not force Fuji to waste its R&D on full frame. 

Bigger sensors result in more mega-pixels needing more powerful PCs to edit the images meaning more expense.

The images from my X-S10 are as good as the images from my friends Canon R6.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Fujifilm have been very astute in not joining the full frame market which is saturated with Sony, Nikon, Panasonic, Pentax, Canon, Leica - have I missed anyone else? Fuji are a big company but with a relatively small camera division. They have found their niche. 

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On 8/18/2021 at 2:54 PM, mdm said:

But how this Nikon camera is linked to all this aps-c - FF - MF story?

Nikon is moving back into the APS-C market. They are diversifying their portfolio whereas Fuji is stagnant. 

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On 8/19/2021 at 2:07 PM, DaveC said:

I am sorry but I cannot support the current trend for full frame sensors.

Thankfully one manufacturer is not chasing full frame. I was a Canon and Nikon user. The Canon and Nikon full frame mirrorless cameras are too heavy and expensive which is why I switched to Fuji. Do not force Fuji to waste its R&D on full frame. 

Bigger sensors result in more mega-pixels needing more powerful PCs to edit the images meaning more expense.

The images from my X-S10 are as good as the images from my friends Canon R6.

 

Here are the facts. The Canon RP costs $999 whereas the Fuji X-T4 costs $1699. 
 

The Canon RP weighs 485g whereas the X-T4 weighs 607g and the dimensions of the X-T4 are bigger then the Canon. 

So this nonsense that Fuji cameras cost less and weigh less and are smaller is nonsense based on Fuji marketing. 
 

The low light images from your friends R6, like Astro images, will be SIGNIFICANTLY better than your X-S10. 
 

My support of full frame is to help ensure that there is a steady stream of R&D dollars into their APS-C line as well as having a low light solution. Fuji can create the best full frame camera on Earth but they won’t because they have some sort of cultural reluctance whereas Nikon and Canon do not. This is after all a business. 
 

 

 

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8 hours ago, epscott said:

Nikon is moving back into the APS-C market. They are diversifying their portfolio whereas Fuji is stagnant. 

You know if Nikon would make FF retro controlled camera and add some lenses with aperture ring I'd go for it... but they are "diversifying their portfolio" instead. What a pity. 😕

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17 hours ago, epscott said:

Here are the facts. The Canon RP costs $999 whereas the Fuji X-T4 costs $1699. 
 

The Canon RP weighs 485g whereas the X-T4 weighs 607g and the dimensions of the X-T4 are bigger then the Canon. 

So this nonsense that Fuji cameras cost less and weigh less and are smaller is nonsense based on Fuji marketing. 
 

The low light images from your friends R6, like Astro images, will be SIGNIFICANTLY better than your X-S10. 
 

My support of full frame is to help ensure that there is a steady stream of R&D dollars into their APS-C line as well as having a low light solution. Fuji can create the best full frame camera on Earth but they won’t because they have some sort of cultural reluctance whereas Nikon and Canon do not. This is after all a business. 
 

 

 

Do you think that if Canon added some sort of stabilization technology to the RP, the weight would increase, the body’s dimensions would get larger, and oh yeah, the price would be higher?

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19 hours ago, epscott said:

Here are the facts. The Canon RP costs $999 whereas the Fuji X-T4 costs $1699. 
 

The Canon RP weighs 485g whereas the X-T4 weighs 607g and the dimensions of the X-T4 are bigger then the Canon. 

So this nonsense that Fuji cameras cost less and weigh less and are smaller is nonsense based on Fuji marketing. 
 

The low light images from your friends R6, like Astro images, will be SIGNIFICANTLY better than your X-S10. 
 

My support of full frame is to help ensure that there is a steady stream of R&D dollars into their APS-C line as well as having a low light solution. Fuji can create the best full frame camera on Earth but they won’t because they have some sort of cultural reluctance whereas Nikon and Canon do not. This is after all a business. 
 

 

 

The RP is "full frame" like all those '90s era stereo receivers that were "digital ready."

Its made of plastic, not WR, its DR is poor, AF nothing special; its sensor tech is generations behind even for Canon.  It lacks IBIS, in addition to anything like the full scan 4K of the X-T4.

A more apt comparison would be to the R6, which is a pretty compelling camera-except for the part where it's most of a grand more than a T4.  And then there's RF glass which, while optically stellar, makes Fuji lenses seem downright thrifty in price.

Fuji makes really great APS-C cameras, and really great medium format cameras.  Lots of companies make really great full frame cameras, so I think Fuji is in the right to go the way they are.

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I see two separate discussions here: (1) whether full-frame (FF) is actually 'better' than cropped sensors (APS-C) and (2) whether Fujifilm should enter the FF market.

(1) in terms of image quality, bigger sensors have an advantage over smaller sensors. It's basic physics (and electronics). It depends however on comparing sensors of similar generations. A 10y old design is most likely less in terms of IQ than a recent design. You need to compare apples with apples... Whether or not the difference in IQ is visible, is a totally different matter. That depends on quality of the rest of the camera, quality of lenses, quality and size of the viewing screen or prints, ability of the photographer... et cetera. Whether the difference in IQ matters is an even more personal question. That is a matter of budget, weight and size you're willing to carry, personal preference for a camera brand or the purpose of use... A landscape stills camera has different requirements than a fast action sports hybrid camera... So, technically a bigger sensor generally has better IQ than a smaller sensor, but there are many more factors that determine the 'best camera for you'.

(2) Fujifilm is a fairly large corporate, but the camera division in itself isn't particularly large. It's smaller than e.g. Nikon's and Panasonic's imaging divisions and more than 5x smaller than Sony's imaging division. Moreover, back in the late 2000's, the camera division of Fujifilm was on the brink of being closed. The X-system was the 'last attempt' to address the photographers market and they succeeded. In itself that was a great success, because the market for digital cameras (compact + interchangeable lens cameras) shrunk with more than 90% between 2010 and 2020. Their bet to stay close to affordable, but good quality ILCs paid off. They found a niche market and by focusing on that market (compact APS-C cameras, a decent lens line, retro styling and film simulations) they became the dominant player next to Sony.

By 2015 Fujifilm made the decision to launch a digital cropped medium format. That wasn't strange, since in the days of film Fujifilm medium format cameras had a good reputation for being rugged and affordable whereas in the 35mm camera market Fujica was a 'B-brand' at best. Again, MF is a niche market in which they could become a dominant player. Also note that Fujifilm doesn't manufacture it's own sensors. They buy from Sony. That means that they will always be a little behind in terms of the latest generation of sensors. Usually 6-9 months. Now, when entering the FF market it's like you enter the shark pool. It takes a lot of money and other resources to succeed and even then be only #3 or #4 in the market. Imagine: you not only have to design and produce a range of cameras, but also the accompanying lenses. None of the X-mount lenses will cover a FF-sensor. All of the GF-mount lenses are too big and slow for FF (but great for MF). Next to that, when you want a professional FF-system, you have to set-up a world-wide Professional Support Service that operates 24/7 and is present at all large events (Olympics, World Cups, UN, EU, WEF, G7 and G20 events... you name it). That is very different from their current basic FPS for a handful of MF fashion photographers... ;-).

So, I guess that Fujifilm gladly forfeits the FF-market and focuses on markets where they can be a dominant player. Given their size and the shrinking of the market, I think that is a smart strategy.

Edited by Herco
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On 8/29/2021 at 12:57 AM, epscott said:

Here are the facts. The Canon RP costs $999 whereas the Fuji X-T4 costs $1699. 
 

The Canon RP weighs 485g whereas the X-T4 weighs 607g and the dimensions of the X-T4 are bigger then the Canon. 

So this nonsense that Fuji cameras cost less and weigh less and are smaller is nonsense based on Fuji marketing. 
 

The low light images from your friends R6, like Astro images, will be SIGNIFICANTLY better than your X-S10. 
 

My support of full frame is to help ensure that there is a steady stream of R&D dollars into their APS-C line as well as having a low light solution. Fuji can create the best full frame camera on Earth but they won’t because they have some sort of cultural reluctance whereas Nikon and Canon do not. This is after all a business. 
 

 

 

I guess the Canon EOS RP isn't the best example of a FF camera that is small and compact. IMO the Nikon Z5 is a much better example of how close FF and APS-C cameras are in terms of size and weight while maintaining comparable features and build quality.

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10 hours ago, BobJ said:

It's not particularly the size and weight of the cameras. It's the size and weight of the lenses that makes a difference.

Very true indeed. That's the very issue I have with the new 18/f1.4, 50/f1 and apparently also the upcoming 33/f1.4. These lenses are about the same size as comparable full-frame lenses for mirrorless cameras. That way, you tend to lose one of the benefits of an aps-c camera system.

Edited by Herco
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Im ok with crop sensor, but i dont agree with prices, new 33 23 18 will costs like sigma ff lenses and new H2 seems will be near 2500$ it is too much for cropped camera, i have used fujifilm many years, but if i can buy a FFcamera at almost same price i dont know, it is very hard to aссept this. OK top  lenses like RF 70-200 or 85 1.2 will be more expensive but you can take sigma which also cool.

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Edited by Aleksandr_m.f
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To be fair, Sigma are planning to introduce more X mount lenses.  Also to be fair, they been teasing this for quite some time now..  but anyway..  Since the equivalent FoV Fuji and Sony mount Sigma are the same price at $899USD, and the Sigma Art lens is pretty chonky, I guess we'll see how this plays out when we get the new 23mm f1.4 Fuji in hand.  Can also verify Fuji BQ and weather resistance in the rainy PNW, so I don't know if the Sigma is up to that challenge.  (That's not a sleight against the Sigma-I genuinely don't know how good their WR is).

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  • 4 weeks later...

I get it @epscott  you want a FF camera and you like Fuji and that's understandable. I agree with those who will say this was a business decision, the FF market place is saturated and has been for a while (before Panasonic jumped in). I'm an old Nikon shooter and would hate to see the company go under but that could be a real possibility. I think Fuji made the right move into affordable MF and I purchase a GFX50R after moving from Nikon to Sony but I'm now home with Fuji. I can't wait to get my hands of a GFX100S.

@Herco I agree with much of what you wrote but in the end you went along with bigger is better. Realistically as sensor technology has improved it really hard to say that. Only when all things are equal or rather the exact same technology is used to build the sensor, then the large sensor with larger photo sites will have some degree of better low light sensitivity, that's it, really that's the only thing larger get's you in the IQ arena when all else is equal. What does bigger gets you is a different look, and this part has been true since the days of film and part of the reason I moved to MF. I love the look you get from the MF sensor of the GFX cameras but my 50R's sensor is getting a little long in the tooth and one could rightfully say that the newest Sony BSI stacked FF sensors are better and I would agree but they look like full frame.

Will Fuji add a FF camera, well one should never say never but I don't see it anytime in the near future. Although a Fuji Nikon merger seems like a perfect match to me....

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