Fujifilm X-PRO2 rumors

[danwells]

What do you mean by "without live view", Tom? Fuji's electronic rangefinder requires it - it's using a version of live view to provide manual focus information. If you mean "no live view at all", focusing options are severely limited (assuming you aren't adding a reflex mirror and making a SLR, which would require new lenses because the present mount distance won't permit a mirror).

 

1.) It could be autofocus only, with central point AF (possibly with a switch between spot and wide AF). This was the option chosen by all 35mm compact cameras, and by the last of the Texas Leicas.

 

2.) It could be an optomechanical rangefinder, like classic Leicas (Texas and otherwise), which would limit useful lens choices severely. Oddly, it would be reporting focus distance to the rangefinder electronically - the Fujinons aren't cammed to report distance mechanically. There is no reason an electronically reporting optomechanical rangefinder wouldn't work, but it is a bit odd.

 

3.) It could be a scale-focuser, with no indication of what's in focus. There haven't been many of those in a long time - the most prominent examples other than Holgas and the like are Minox spy cameras and a few of the film Olympus Pen and XA cameras. REALLY oddly, it would be an electronic scale-focuser, because only a few of the Fujinons can move the elements mechanically (the few lenses with sliding-clutch focusing rings). To make scale focusing work (assuming you aren't using an external rangefinder - perhaps a golfers' laser measuring device), you need wide angles and modest apertures. It's easy to scale focus a 10mm lens at f8, impossible to scale focus a 56mm at f1.2!

 

4.) If it can have electronic viewfinder overlays, it could have sophisticated AF, using the overlays to report focus points.

 

Any of these options are feasible, but the only one I can imagine appealing to any significant number of photographers is the rangefinder (possibly in combination with sophisticated AF using overlays to show what it's doing). I can't imagine anyone buying a premium-priced camera with only primitive center-point AF and/or scale focus, with no way to confirm focus.

 

There is an alternative definition of "without live view", which is that you never use the rear screen (which could be present for reviewing images or initial setup, but unimportant, or it could be entirely absent), just the viewfinder. That definition allows for live-view based electronic aids to manual focus, and also allows for sophisticated autofocus that needs overlays. It is even possible with only a good EVF (no OVF at all). I shoot my X-T1 very close to this way - composing and focusing through the viewfinder, setting almost everything on the dials (which I can find by feel with the camera at my eye), occasionally using the screen to check an image or format a card. I'd barely notice if it didn't have a rear screen.

 

It is easy enough to use most X cameras this way - their controls are well set up for it, and they have few menu settings that cause them to behave unexpectedly. Almost all of our lenses are also well suited - good manual focus rings on all but a few of the cheapest lenses, and marked aperture rings on the primes and some zooms. An X-Pro 2 should the best Fuji yet for this type of use (combining an OVF and an ISO dial). About the only thing missing for no-menu use is Nikon's two-button format command. I have never seen a digital camera other than high-end Nikons that lets you format a card without menu gymnastics... Of course you don't want a format button - much too risky! Nikon uses two buttons held down for three seconds, which is hard to do by mistake.

 

Fuji's simple video doesn't take any effort on the designers' part - it's a "why not" afterthought that doesn't take away from the still camera. I'd be shocked if the X-Pro 2 had any more effort put into video than that (and it should be easy enough to turn the video off altogether if you don't want it). The X-T2 might have more than that, and go in the Panasonic/Sony hybrid direction, or it might not...

[keylight]

lol Tom all of those features are necessary to people who actually make money with their cameras. Why not shoot film if you hate technology so much?

[Tom]

lol Tom all of those features are necessary to people who actually make money with their cameras. Why not shoot film if you hate technology so much?

 

Do I hate technology, if I don't need a video mode ? 

 

AF will still be based on phase detection. And the new 24mp sensor will give a lot of hardware support. I expect the world leading AF system in February. Nothing to worry about.

 

Do I hate technology, if I like the hybrid VF of my X100T more than the tilt live-view screen of a X-M1? And even the EVF of my T1 is terrible noisy in low light conditions. No - state of the art in technology is the hybrid view finder. And if I use a view finder, there is no need for a fragile tilt screen. So I don't want one. And I guess I'll get a hybrid VF and a fixed screen. 

 

What I want is super sharp 24mp sensor with brilliant IQ and a super fast AF. And I guess I'll get one. 

 

What I want is a weather resistant bullet proof body. And I guess I'll get one. 

 

What I want is a manual ISO dial. And I guess I'll get one. 

 

My dream would be a internal 5-axis sensor-shifting image stabilization system with pixel-shift resolution. There's still hope to get one - but not a lot. 

 

Finally I would wish to be able to switch off the JPG engine and all the settings in the menu. That would reduce the number of menu entries by 50%. No hope to get that option. 

 

Overall I am very confident to get a new high technology camera in a few weeks. 

[danwells]

Given Tom's definition of a purist camera, I agree with almost all of it. What many of us, including Tom and I, seem to want is a menu-free (or nearly menu-free) camera with great lenses that we primarily interact with through the best viewfinder we can find... I guess that makes us Fuji shooters   Apart from the low-end models that lack a viewfinder, most X-series cameras are closer to that ideal than just about anything else (and the X-Pro2 may be the closest yet). They do pretty well at letting us turn off unwanted functions, too (although I think that we are unlikely to be able to get rid of JPG, but we MIGHT get even less menu dependence than we have now, which would accomplish similar ends - who cares how complex the menus are, if you never have to use them)?

 

The only use I ever make of Wi-Fi is in order to text images with 11 stops of dynamic range to overly smug iPhone hipsters who say "why do you need that heavy thing - I have a camera (with 5 stops of DR ) that sends images straight to the all-important social media". I love showing the iPhonies that I can send images right away (if I really need to), and they'll actually be decent images. I own an iPhone, but I'd just as soon try to call a friend holding my X-T1 to my ear as take a serious picture with a telephone.

[Patrick FR]

Fujifilm X-Pro2 Ergonomics: Joystick + Exposure Compensation Dial with “C” function – Trusted Source

 

I start to fall in Love http://www.fujirumors.com/fujifilm-x-pro2-ergonomics-joystick-exposure-compensation-dial-with-c-function-trusted-source/

[ShutterNot]

NICE !

I'm liking it ....

[withfilm]

Everything is looking good. If everything holds true, this might be a good long term system for me while I wait for the rumored medium format system.     Fingers crossed and credit card ready. 

[danwells]

The one concern I have is the sensor... Two reasons. One is that none of Patrick's trusted sources have commented on it (we have multiple rumors of a new sensor, most likely around 24 MP, but none are from top sources). The second is that the A6000 successor (and a possible "A7000") have fallen off the radar screen. The logical sensor for the X-Pro2 (and at least the higher end forthcoming X bodies) would be the A6000 successor sensor with an X-Trans filter. To add mystery to the whole thing, it looks like Nikon just bought Samsung's camera business, presumably with intent to use a lot of Samsung sensors (eliminating Sony's largest single market for high-end sensors). Nikon has never been "all Sony", but they have used a LOT of Sony sensors.

 

Fuji is left with three options, two of which are tricky (and the third may involve yet another delay).

 

1.) Stick with the same old 16MP sensor for another generation. I, for one, won't buy an expensive camera with that sensor - I'll either stick to one body (the X-T1 I have) or buy a relatively inexpensive X-E body as a backup. The X-T1 is so good at so many things that the only reason I'd spend a lot of money on a high-end body is if it had a sensor upgrade (I like 24x36" as a print size, and I consider the X-T1 acceptable, but not perfect, at that size).

 

2.) Use the A6000 sensor. This is a GREAT solution in the short term - it's a really nice, relatively modern sensor, and I think it will have excellent performance with an X-Trans filter. The problem is that, because of X-Trans (I'm guessing that the custom color filter is expensive and needs quantity), Fuji only switches sensors occasionally - we've had pretty much the same sensor for four years. The already two year old A6000 sensor will be very long in the tooth in 2020...

 

3.) (what I'm hoping for). The A6000 successor sensor exists - Sony's either holding back that camera for another reason, or they haven't made enough of them to release for the holidays (or they simply have a lot of A6000s built that they want to sell this holiday season). First of all, the Sony successor could release at CES/PMA a week before Fuji's event, and then Fuji uses the same sensor in an X-Trans version a week later. It's also possible (if less likely) that Fuji could actually release a camera with the new sensor BEFORE Sony does. Sony might actually make more money selling sensors to Fuji for a $1500+ camera than selling their own $500-$600 camera. I'd be shocked if the X-Pro 2 doesn't launch as the most expensive non full-frame non-Leica mirrorless around - depending on what Nikon does with a D400, it could even be the most expensive non full-frame non-Leica camera in regular production. There are good reasons for this - it's a complex, high-end camera with a ton of desirable features - but it's just not going to sell like a $500 camera!

       If production of the new sensor is relatively limited, directing it to Fuji could make sense - the X-Pro 2 will probably sell very well for a $1500ish mirrorless body ,which will probably also sell in a few different kits with primes and higher-end zooms for around $2000.  It won't come close to the sales of the $500-$600 A6000 successor with its $150 kit lens (yes, Fuji HAS a lens they could kit for $150, but who'd use the 16-50 f3.5-5.6 XC on an X-Pro 2)? More realistic kits  might be with the 35mm f2, the 18-55 f2.8-4, the 16-55mm f2.8, or possibly the 18-135, the 23 or the 56, in addition to body-only - many X-Pro 2 purchasers will already own a collection of Fujinons. Even the 35 or the 18-55 are likely to add around $300 to the body price, and any of the others will be closer to $500 (or more for the 56 or the 16-55), pushing the starting price close to $2000. Due to the difference in sales between midrange cameras and expensive cameras, there could be enough sensors around by January to make 10,000 or less X-Pro 2s, but not enough to make 50,000 A6000 successors.

[umad?]

I wouldn't worry about the sensor too much.

 

1. 24MP seems to be a given. The Magnum leak supports this. (The X-Pro2 with 24MP Sensor seems to be already tested)

 

2. Nikon likes to source it's sensors from different manufacturers. They used Renesas and Toshiba recently. Since both (fabs) are now run by Sony it would make sense for Nikon to look elsewhere (Samsung). 

 

3. I was never a huge fan of the A6000 sensor. But to be honest: it's probably really good. Take a look what other companies have done with Sony Sensors (Pentax K5II, all the Fujis, most Nikons) and compare them to the "original Sonys". I guess the A6000 sensor could deliver outstanding results. 

 

4. Even if it was a basic A6000 sensor, this would not mean it is exactly the same. Not even manufacturing wise. For example the X-Trans II is a sensor not used by anyone else. This sensor does not exist anywhere else with phase detection pixels (or the X-Trans cfa). So it could be, that we get a slightly improved A6000

 

5. There is probably coming some new Sony sensor soon, but let's be realistic - how much improvement will it really bring? Looking at the past and the latest improvments, it's probably way below 1/3EV improvement in noise. 

[Aswald]

Where's the "Pre-Order" button?

[danwells]

Did someone see full size images from the Magnum leak, and they were 24 MP? I thought they were resized to some figure that would have been a downsize from either 16 or 24...  had thought the excitement over Magnum was that the metadata said "X-Pro2", but the images were resized to something like 1500x1000 pixels, and weren't anything that you could tell anything else about image quality from, either. If someone saw 24 MP originals, that's good news - since any variant of the 24 MP Sony sensor (other than the old NEX-7 sensor, but that hasn't been in production in years) would have AT LEAST the DR and other characteristics we have now, plus substantially improved resolution.

 

My understanding of the X-Trans is that it is an unmodified sensor with a custom color filter attached to it late in the manufacturing process. As I understand sensor manufacturing (I don't claim any expertise), there is a basic sensor made of silicon, with a few characteristics:

 

1.) Number of pixels and pixel size

2.) Sensitivity/noise/dynamic range (these all have to do with how the light sensitive pixels are designed and arranged).

3.) Phase detection pixels (number and arrangement)

4.) Illumination - a BSI sensor is quite different from a conventional sensor

5.) Readout type - some sensors have the A/D circuitry on the sensor, while others have it externally (and there may be other subtleties here)

6.) Layering - all normal sensors are one layer, but the Foveon is three-layered, and this is, to my understanding, a characteristic of the base sensor)

7.) Any on-chip noise reduction

8.) Pixel shape - generally square, but there have been exceptions

 

This sensor will produce a (monochrome, unless it's a Foveon) image on its own, but there are generally several layers of cover glass and filters over it.

1.) Color filter array (except for Foveons, the Leica Monochrom and multi-sensor video cameras) - usually Bayer, but sometimes X-Trans or another unusual design (Sony has experimented with adding emerald pixels, and some phones add sensitivity at the expense of color by leaving some pixels unfiltered)

2.) IR and UV cut filters

3.)  Anti-Aliasing filter (sometimes omitted)

4.) Cover glass - protective (anti-reflective as well?)

 

As I understand it, a camera manufacturer chooses from a relatively limited number of base sensors (Canon, Sony and Samsung make their own, everybody else buys them), and either accepts the base set of filters the sensor manufacturer offers or adds their own. While X-Trans is the biggest difference we usually see (completely different color filter, plus omits the anti-aliasing filter), it's not uncommon for a camera maker to create a "variant" of a sensor that is in fact the same base sensor with different filters layered on top. Nikon is often thought to get increased performance out of Sony sensors by modifying the filters, and, of course X-Trans is a substantial variant that performs quite differently (and often better) than a conventionally filtered version of the same sensor.

 

Changing a filter pack is nowhere near as big a deal as using an actually different sensor. As a matter of fact, filter packs are occasionally modified after a camera is purchased, generally by removing IR, UV or anti-aliasing filters. The Nikon D800E and a couple of other cameras are effectively factory-modified with variant filter packs.

 

I would be surprised if the X-Trans II sensor doesn't exist elsewhere (with different filtration, of course). If the phase detection pixels are a custom job, why didn't Fuji go to a higher resolution sensor at that juncture? It seems weird to get Sony to produce a short run of custom sensors (and phase detection would be inherent to the silicon) instead of redesigning the color filter to accommodate an existing sensor with phase detection.

[umad?]

If the phase detection pixels are a custom job, why didn't Fuji go to a higher resolution sensor at that juncture?

 

The X-Trans II is the only implementation of the IMX071 with on sensor phase detection pixels. So yes, this is a custom job. Why no other sensors? Guess Fuji had it's reasons.

 

About the Magnum photo: I think if you downloaded the image it was 6000x4000px. So if it was not upscaled, this would indicate a 24MP sensor

[Tikcus]

I wouldn't be surprised if Fuji used a new Sony sensor, that Sony have not used in any of their cameras.

 

Sony have released a lot of Full frame cameras since the Alpha 6000 (the only APS-C camera being a Alpha 5100).

Their official lens roadmap does not include any new E mount APS-C glass, and Sony Sell Full Frame cameras for the same price Fuji is selling APS-C cameras.

They would find it hard to offer an APS-C camera for the same kind of money as Fuji charges for the X-T1, as you can buy the Sony Alpha 7 II (with in camera stabilisation), for a similar amount of cash.

 

A few hundred £/€/$ extra and you can buy an adapter to use the vast A mount range of lenses with autofocus.

 

Sony have separated their sensor business from their camera business, potentially removing any agreements about delaying the release of any cameras based on a new sensor until Sony have released their model first.

 

 

[danwells]

That's great news about the Magnum image - I can't imagine Magnum upscaling for download...

 

Maybe modifying a color filter to accommodate phase detection pixels (which are unfiltered?) isn't as big a deal as doing a whole new filter for a different resolution? That's all I can think of - otherwise, why would they have bothered with a variant of the IMX071?

[umad?]

I think Fuji chose the IMX071 because it was an awesome sensor back then (and still is). Isoless and it handles image manipulation well. 

The alternatives back then where not really great. (the Sony exclusive NEX7 sensor had huge problems). So I guess Fuji settled for a big amount (big in Fuji terms, not Nikon/Sony ^^) to get the cost down. 

And when the next gen of sensors did not really deliver great improvements, it made the life easier. 

If one takes a close look at the last gen of 24MP sensor, the things to notice are:

Pentax went from the K5II to the K3. While it was a better camera overall, the sensor had less dynamic range and was not as good/equal in noise (low light) performance.

Nikon when from the D7000 to the D7000 (from a Sony to a Toshiba Sensor). While the camera was better overall and the sensor was good too, it had some huge problems: banding for example 

 

The real performance difference came with 2015: the Samsung NX1/NX500 and the Nikon D7200 (with an revised D7100 sensor). Both perform really well and offer a better package than the Fuji sensor does.

 

Looking at all of this, Fujis decision to stay with the IMX071 (and probably get a better price on it) seems like a good idea. Personally I think, that soon after the X-Pro1 launch they realised that their AF performance was sub-par and decided to go for PDAF. So probably the X-Trans II was set, before they even knew, that the new gen 24MP sensor would not be that huge of a hit.

 

 

So let's take a look into the future. While Fujifilm is (together with Panasonic) working on an organic sensor, it seems almost certain, that - for this generation - Fuji will stick with Sony sensor. There seem to be four options:

 

1. an older 24MP sensor. IMX193 for example. Personally I think this is pretty unlikely, readout speed and many more things would not make this sensor a good choice. 

2. the A6000 sensor. It's a good sensor and it's likely, that it will perform even better than in the A6000 (the A6000 sensor should be IMX210AQL. The first letter after the numbers indicates the revision number, so it could (theoretically) be, to get a version like IMX210Bxx) 

3. a sensor that is on Sonys "available" list, but has not yet been used. The IMX271 seems suited. Very fast (19fps full sensor read out, so possibly 4K capable)

4. a sensor that is not on Sonys "available" list. The A7s or A7RII sensor were not mentioned there (and still are not!) and were a "surprise". Theoretically it would be possible that Sony is working on an Exmor R (BSI) APS-C sensor. 

 

 

Anyway, 24MP seems to be a given - let's see what we get. Number 4 of course would be most exciting, but (except for #1) all options seem to be a good update. 

[Blacksheep]

Do I hate technology, if I don't need a video mode ? 

 

AF will still be based on phase detection. And the new 24mp sensor will give a lot of hardware support. I expect the world leading AF system in February. Nothing to worry about.

 

Do I hate technology, if I like the hybrid VF of my X100T more than the tilt live-view screen of a X-M1? And even the EVF of my T1 is terrible noisy in low light conditions. No - state of the art in technology is the hybrid view finder. And if I use a view finder, there is no need for a fragile tilt screen. So I don't want one. And I guess I'll get a hybrid VF and a fixed screen. 

 

What I want is super sharp 24mp sensor with brilliant IQ and a super fast AF. And I guess I'll get one. 

 

What I want is a weather resistant bullet proof body. And I guess I'll get one. 

 

What I want is a manual ISO dial. And I guess I'll get one. 

 

My dream would be a internal 5-axis sensor-shifting image stabilization system with pixel-shift resolution. There's still hope to get one - but not a lot. 

 

Finally I would wish to be able to switch off the JPG engine and all the settings in the menu. That would reduce the number of menu entries by 50%. No hope to get that option. 

 

Overall I am very confident to get a new high technology camera in a few weeks. 

Hybrid viewfinder, fixed screen bulletproof body, manual ISO dial, high resolution sensor, better faster AF. Check, check, check. I can dig what you are saying until you get to losing the jpg engine. As a former "must always shoot in RAW" photographer, I have to say the Fujifilm jpg engine is the shizzle once you set it to your liking. I am constantly amazed at OOC results. I do shoot in RAW+JPG (fine) but I often find the jpgs are just fine for web use, etc. I leave my Fujis on RAW +JPG (fine) in case I want to post and/or print. Cards are cheap. 

I am not so convinced we need IBIS but I am curious about the two high resolution modes floating around (Olympus, Pentax). As someone who shoots lots of landscapes no a tripod with the intent to print large, I am intrigued.  

[vchurch]

Historically, Fuji has introduced one sensor and then trickled it down to most of the otters cameras in the line. I agree with those who have speculated that that's what will happen, so I expect a new sensor. That said, I think THAT sensor will be APS-C, or APS-X at the largest, because if it isn't, Fuji will have to research, produce, market and sell an entirely different lens line. That seems unlikely AND reduces the single major benefit of mirrorless systems--a small instrument package. If anything the new XF35 shows they are moving in the other direction by making even smaller, quality lenses.

 

The major criticism of Fuji cameras--realistic or not--has been autofocus speed. Personally I find the X-E2, even prior to the rumored FW update, to be quite good in this area, but much as Macs were criticized, fairly or not, for a decade or more as not running enough "business software" autofocus is Fuji's perceived weakness. So I'm suspecting the upgraded sensor will remove that criticism entirely by having phase pixel across the sensor along with contrast, a significantly faster image processor and an upgrade to 24 or 36 MP to stay current with the crowd. It will also keep the other signature features of the high end line such as an optical viewfinder, otherwise it's just an X-E3.

 

If that camera arrives on January 15th, and there is a 35 f2 lens bundle, I'm clicking the order button on FR as fast as I can.

[Patrick FR]

No 4K at its launch... No Deal Breaker for Patrick: http://www.fujirumors.com/on-jan-15-fuji-will-launch-the-x-pro2-without-4k-video-trusted-japanese-source/

[milandro]

ok, so ( despite the name which it will be given)  this will be an anticlimactic X Pro 1 PLUS then rather than the so long awaited X Pro 2 with all the bells and whistles ?

 

I mean, instead of the revolutionary obscure object of desire which has long been promised in the prophecies to come and change everything, the true and one and oly that many were ^ forecasting and waiting for?

[Tom]

No 4K at its launch... No Deal Breaker for Patrick: http://www.fujirumors.com/on-jan-15-fuji-will-launch-the-x-pro2-without-4k-video-trusted-japanese-source/

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[ShutterNot]

OMG - poor rice bag

[ShutterNot]

I have to wonder, what lens lineup would people use for 4K video if in fact it were available.

[gordonrussell76]

Well just because there is no 4k does not mean its not a new sensor, personally I think 1 of 2 things is happening here.

 

In both scenarios below I believe it will have a new higher pixel sensor and processor ie it is the next generation.

 

1) They are deciding for the purposes of product differentiation to keep 4k for the X-T2 i.e keeping the purity/simplicity of the range finder. It may also be a pain to implement it along with a hybrid OVF that could also be a contributor.

2) Its planned to have 4k but they have not ironed out all the bugs so will launch as HD and then add 4k via firmware update, because given the history of the X-Pro2 they realize that if they delay it one more time a lot of people are going to be upset and its not worth delaying it for 4k a feature that polarizes opinion anyway.

 

My suspicion is it will be a bit of both the above. I think launch without 4k, most of the early adopters will be purists and won't care. Then at the same time of the X-T2 launch or shortly after they will release a 4k firmware for the X-Pro 2 so that it retains its joint flagship status.

 

It may well be they are taking the above approach as they have a suspicion that the X-Pro 2 does not need 4k to attract buyers, and would prefer to differentiate between cameras, but it gives them 6 months to look at sales figures and change there mind before launching the X-T2.

[CRAusmus]

So glad to hear there will be no 4k in the Pro2.

 

I'd personally like to see them flesh out the X-T1 line like Sony has with the A7 line.  It'd be nice to have a group of bodies built around the XT-1 that have special capabilities like the A7 series are.  Possibly make an XT-1 that is geared more toward video application and less emphasis on stills, etc. and let the XT-2 be the upgrade that it should be.

 

I'm probably in the minority in this opinion though.

[Tom]

Everything is going the right way. I'm interested in four points on the XPro2: IQ, IQ, IQ and AF. As long as Fuji is focused on that, I'm happy. I expect industrie leading IQ and super fast AF in January.