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Fujifilm X-PRO2 rumors


Patrick FR

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i'll wake up on a few hours and we'll have a new camera that I can't afford, although strangely looking forward to the launch.

 

More so, to see what will filter down the lines over the next year or two.

 

Specs leak on Oz site are interesting, more so on X-E2s, where it seems to show better auto focus, compared to X-E2..... so maybe not just firmware, but that is for a different board

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So I'm thinking the X-Pro2 will be exactly $1699 in the US since B&H is giving a gift certificate for that amount?  In effect someone gets the camera for free.

 

It appears that way. I certainly hope that is the price, or less, but not more.

 

Early rumor seemed to suggest a price of $2000 - (gasp)

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No longer a rumor. Found the below linked Verge article worth my while and thought I should share it. Discusses X-Pro2's and X-E2S' official features and pricing. http://www.theverge.com/2016/1/14/10766824/fuji-x-pro-2-announced-specs-price-release-date

 

Of course Fujifilm has the specs on their website too: http://www.fujifilmusa.com/products/digital_cameras/x/fujifilm_x_pro2/index.html

 

Cheers.

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I am pretty sure it will lift up. It will be pretty much the same dial as the Fujifilm GF670 (wich came out just a few years ago). 

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There you press the unlock button in the middle to get out of Auto Shutter (the red "A") and you lift the dial to change the ISO.

 

But even if it doesn't, it would stil be inconvenient because you will have to remove your eye from the viewfinder to change the ISO using that dial.

 

Looks like that combined dial, works pretty much as I "predicted". 

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I am pretty sure it will lift up. It will be pretty much the same dial as the Fujifilm GF670 (wich came out just a few years ago). 

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There you press the unlock button in the middle to get out of Auto Shutter (the red "A") and you lift the dial to change the ISO.

 

But even if it doesn't, it would stil be inconvenient because you will have to remove your eye from the viewfinder to change the ISO using that dial.

 

Looks like that combined dial, works pretty much as I "predicted". 

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I'm interested to see what the improvements are with regard to dynamic range compared to the x-pro 1. Nothing specific that can be gleaned from the specs or the few initial reviews.

 

I can see why they have refreshed at this stage; evolution not revolution (organic sensor), after 4 years they need to keep pace to remain relevant. 

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WOW ... PRO 2 looks amazing. Yeah there are a few thing that could be better, but overall - I'm in. Quite a few reviews and images out there based on pre-production models. Very positive feedback by reviewers.

 

The parallax thing is one issue, but there is always the EVF

I was hoping the EVF would be same class size and brightness as in the T1

 

Other than those minor things, the camera for me is more than I need, while the E-1 I have is not quite enough.

Life is tough. Maybe I will grow into it. 

 

Now the hard part. Waiting for shipments to start.

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I've been looking, and it doesn't seem like there are any bundles (the price came in lower than many had feared, but no extra discounts)..

 

One or two reviews do mention that it seems to have extraordinary dynamic range, although there is nothing resembling a measurement anywhere.4

 

A technical detail that appeared in the Fuji Guys (aren't they employees of Fuji North America?) video  is that this is a brand-new sensor using COPPER wiring in place of aluminum. I don't know about the IMX 271 (which was only released a few months ago), but NO older Sony sensor uses copper - the only one I know of is the A7rII sensor. If it's a Sony, this looks like the APS-C version of that sensor - a full generation newer (and perhaps higher-end as well) than anything else in a camera. I need to watch that whole video - there may be more on the sensor in there (the Fuji Guys said that the copper "gave them more room for pixels by cutting down on wiring" or something very close to that - sounds like it could be BSI or even stacked BSI)? The other possibility is a Samsung sensor (they have used copper, and are  (as far as I know) the only folks to do so in a large sensor outside of the A7rII sensor and possibly the new 100 MP Smedium format sensor) - but the resolution doesn't make sense for a Samsung... I'll watch the whole video and hope there's more on it (the copper tidbit was about 4 minutes in).

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Much of this looks like great improvements, but I'm tempering my enthusiasm for a little bit, as there is still an elephant in the room -

 

None of the reviewers had access to RAW files or processing. This means none of them were able to say anything meaningful about Dynamic Range, or whether there is improved treatment of fine detail in greens/foliage, etc., during RAW processing.

 

I will wait until I see some well controlled tests of dynamic range, and LR and other processors before getting super excited and pulling the trigger.

 

Everything else seems right though, so if the sensor lives up to the state of the art I'll be on board with it. We shall see...

 

That's a really interesting comments about the copper wiring on the sensor, etc. It's things like this we now need more detail on as well!

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[...]

 

 

copper, no BSI.

 

Sensor Dynamic Range per pixel: over 14 stops (but those are just the numbers, real life performance will be interesting)

 

 

Anyway it seems, we got a totally new sensor, no one used bevor. And it seems that it is outstanding too. 

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in one of the reviews there were Full Well Capacity (18000e) and Read Noise (1e). With this, you can calculate the per pixel dynamic range the manufacturer states.  (I'd have to look for it - but it was one of those listed on the FR page) 

 

Of course, real life dynamic range will be different. But over 14stops is really impressive. 

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 that actually is very interesting.

 

What's very exciting is that it's stated the X-Pro processor is in fact 4K ready @30fps but intended for a multimedia model. I wonder if the multimedia model they are referencing or alluding to is the future X-T2? This way the purists get their pure stills camera with fixed LCD screen while the rest get their wishes in the X-T2. I have to have a tilt screen on at least 1 camera. It's a must have no compromise feature for me. Now the question going forward is this; if Fuji puts everything (hardware wise) in the X-T2...which camera is the flagship model? Not that it matters to me...but I would think that if you put all new upgraded hardware in the X-T2, will it cost more than the X-Pro2? The X-T1 has a tilt screen and larger EVF which brings cost up. What I could see Fuji doing is keeping the same sensor in the X-T2 but using the new processor to get 4K video worked in. It would be a tradeoff much like how Sony has postured themselves with the A7 line. Sony has the A7II and A7R II mainly for stills shooting but has the A7S at only 12MP for extreme low light shooting in 4K. Even if Fuji put in a newly developed 16MP sensor in the X-T2 along with the XPro processor with 4K video...it would be a show stopper. I'm beginning to believe that Fuji may have finally come up with a proper strategy in their product lineup.  

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I wonder if this is the IMX271 (a third generation of the Sony 24 MP sensor first seen in the NEX-7), which doesn't seem to have made it into any camera (unless it slipped, unnoticed, into a Pentax or two, or some APS-C compact), although it started cropping up on Sony spec sheets in April or so? The other possibility is a FOURTH generation sensor that is too new to be on a spec sheet yet... Does anyone know if the IMX271 uses copper wiring? It's supposed to have an extraordinarily fast readout, just like this sensor. Whether it is the third or fourth generation, this promises to be quite the sensor. The Photoreview article mentioned single-electron read noise (and Fuji has been boasting of extremely low read noise) - I'm not aware of ANY big sensor with read noise quite that low - they're getting better, but I thought the best were still around a couple of electrons. The sample high ISO shots in some of the reviews DO look very clean, and some of the reviewers have commented that it is unusually clean at high ISOs. I'm not sure the full well capacity of 18,000 electrons is correct - it's lower than previous sensors of similar pixel pitch (it should be similar or higher) - Fuji designer Takashi Ueno says that the signal level from the new sensor is significantly higher, which doesn't mesh with a low full well capacity (that I can see).

 

There is no way to get dynamic range greater than 14 stops out of a 14-bit analog to digital converter (yes, you can have a sensor whose full well capacity is more than 16,384 times the noise floor, but the converter won't give you more than 1 stop per bit). What may very well be happening here, and is happening with a couple of the very best full-frame sensors, is that we're coming right up on that limit. A 14-bit converter has noise of its own, so it won't give you QUITE 14 stops, and any sensor with more than 13 stops of DR is almost certainly seeing some limitation from the converter. A few modern sensors have begun to get into the range where this matters, and it sounds like the X-Pro 2 sensor is going to be one of them. The only cameras that can actually claim more than 14 bits of DR have a 16-bit A/D converter AND a sensor capable of picking up more than 14 bits. Right now, as far as I know, that group includes a few digital cinema cameras (some of the RED models, maybe an ARRI or two) and perhaps the new Sony 100 MP medium format sensor. Phase One has used 16-bit converters on a few of their CCD medium format backs, but the sensors themselves weren't giving more than 14 stops, so the 16-bit converter's function was to push the converter's own noise out of the picture, giving the best possible conversion from whatever 12-14 stop signal the sensor produced. The 50 MP CMOS back (which uses a medium format version of a modern Sony sensor) might have a 14+ stop signal, but it uses a 14-bit converter. The new 100 MP monster has a current-generation Sony sensor, which is at least pushing 14 stops, if not over, AND it uses a 16-bit converter.

 

Could we get more out of modern sensors below medium format by using 16-bit converters? Probably... There is some actual signal in the 15th bit on some full-frame sensors, and it sounds like the X-Pro 2 sensor will probably be the first APS-C sensor to produce any signal (other than noise) down there.16-bit converters are expensive (Red and Phase One don't care, but everyone else does) and produce a ton of data (Phase One shoots at 1 FPS, and Red sticks a huge processor in their camera, powers it with a 2 pound battery and  cools the resulting mess with a big ol' fan). The first 14-bit converter I'm aware of that made a difference was in the Nikon D3x, which had 12 and 14-bit modes. The 14-bit mode produced notably better files than the 12-bit mode, but it took the otherwise 5.5 FPS camera and reduced it to ~1.5 FPS. Later 14-bit converters are faster, and the processors are set up to handle them, but the first 16-bit converter in a "regular" camera will probably have a huge speed hit.

 

Another spec that is worth a glance is that 480 MP/sec processing speed! That's high enough to handle any imaginable video mode, including uncompressed 4K 60p (just barely) , and more than fast enough to deal with the frame rate and resolution of the fastest pro DSLR. It almost smells of medium format aspirations to me (total guess). Even if it's not meant for medium format, it is fast enough for any POSSIBLE autofocus or other processing...

 

The only other tidbit we hadn't seen all over the place that turned up in the Fuji Guys video is that the tripod socket is correctly positioned! It's right under the sensor, centered both from front to back and side to side.

 

And then there's the mysterious flash! I dug through all of B&H's flash listings for other systems, trying to figure out what Fuji had rebranded - and I can't. Their overpriced Sunpak rebrands are rather obvious - the controls are exactly the same as the Sunpak model (except for the "retro" flash) and even the model number is often similar. I'm sure someone's making it for them, but it seems to be a custom job (I tried matching it to Sunpak, Metz, Phottix, Yongnuo and Bolt/Bower/Vivitar, without luck). Maybe it's a new model from one of those companies (one reason Fuji's version might be coming out in May), and we'll see a Canon or Nikon TTL version in April and say "oh, THAT's what the flash is"... Dpreview's pictures do reveal that it's made in China , which reduces the likelihood that it's actually made by Fuji - they make their higher end products in Japan, and a lot of midrange stuff in Thailand.

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in one of the reviews there were Full Well Capacity (18000e) and Read Noise (1e). With this, you can calculate the per pixel dynamic range the manufacturer states.  (I'd have to look for it - but it was one of those listed on the FR page) 

 

Of course, real life dynamic range will be different. But over 14stops is really impressive.

 

Cool, thanks! Here's hoping...

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Some really interesting thoughts on the sensor and dynamic range, and the camera in general.

 

Personally, when we get some RAW processing and samples, if the DR is state of the art for APS-C as speculated, and anywhere near the better FF models I'll be seriously interested. As important as the DR is how clean the shadows are, and to an extent how ISO-less the sensor is. On my A7rii I can expose for the highlights and pull up shadows to balance the exposure almost painlessly, a little like a friend of mine, who is a pro landscape photographer, now does on his D810. It really is extraordinary - shots which would previously have to be bracketed can now be achieved in one capture. If Fuji have matched that kind of performance with the new sensor that will be quite an achievement.

 

If the 'waxy' detail problem has been mitigated in RAW for LR too I'll definitely be in - I have some hope of this with the NR settings now going down to -4, which suggests you might be able to turn what I believe before was un-defeatable RAW NR off completely, but we shall see...

 

By the way, was it just me, or did anyone else think the 33mm frameline is pretty much a confirmation that the rumoured 33mm f/1.2 is more than a rumour now?

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In terms of the hugely faster processor, and the potential read speed of the sensor, yes, I feel the X-T2 will almost certainly have 4K video, and perhaps some other tricks. I'd be interested to see if it has that new 4.4K EVF which has been rumoured too.

 

IF the new sensor is fantastic, I'm getting close to the point I could switch completely to Fuji in the near future. An X-T2 with 4K, and especially if it had IBIS (I shoot primes, so none of my lenses are stabilised) would probably do it. Very exciting. Since Fuji's lens lineup is quite complete in terms of FL range, it would be lovely to see the whole range updated to the latest AF motors, weather sealing, etc., even if not optically.

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Well, in the end, I think we should be somewhat thankful that Sony spun off its sensor division. There are 3 things to watch now. What is the successor to the Sony a6000 going to look like? What will Nikon release with its rumored mirrorless offering? And what will the X-T2 look like? No matter what I will be getting the X-T2 but it will be interesting to see how Sony advances it's sensor technology within competing lines. What appears to me now is that if you look at Sony and their relationship with each company they have had deals with is that their relationship with Fuji is somewhat special. Instead of simply being sold a sensor and relying on internal dsp's, it seems there is some level of true innovation going on. Sony truly pioneered the concept of mirrorless and this has probably been their strategy all along and if you really think about it from a business standpoint, it makes perfect sense. Sony doesn't have to worry that it's internals will die inside of their own product line...it can live outside of it as well. This in effect shields Sony from any immediate market trends.

 

The last random thought I have is this; based on what I've been reading over the past year, a certain company is poised to come to market with a mirrorless offering that could lay waste to the entire landscape and really put pressure on Canon and Nikon. That company is Sigma. Sigmas Art line of lens offerings have been KILLING it lately. But it's almost as if everyone has forgotten about their Foveon sensor line. If Sigma were able to partner with Sony...that could truly be a come out of nowhere surprise.

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