Fujifilm X-PRO2 rumors

[Ektachrome]

@danwells

 

That is the best summing up I've ever read about why Sony's lens 'strategy' is deeply flawed, frustrating, and why I still can't really get the lenses I want for my A7rii..

 

Rico's first look is extremely tantalising. If the hopes for dynamic range to compete with D810 level cameras are realised, as well as improved processing in LR, I'm getting one. It can't replace the Sony completely yet, as I need high quality 4K video for a short film, but I suspect it will replace it for most stills simply because I greatly prefer Fuji's ergonomics and lenses, weight, etc.

 

Lastly, OT, what a fantastic thing to do, hiking the Appalachian Trail! I've wanted to ever since reading Bill Bryson's 'A Walk in the Woods', being a very keen walker myself and a great lover of the US National Parks. Sadly I live in the UK and can't afford the time and money at the moment, but hope to one day have a go. Good luck and let us see all the lovely photos I'm sure you'll get along the way!

[ShutterNot]

I like the sound of the new X-Processor PRO being more than is needed. Too often something is build good enough for today but is outdated tomorrow because the CPU can't handle the new applications that come to market down the road.

 

Sounds like FUJI built in plenty power in the PRO 2 for Kaizan - and that's music to my ears.

 

Was reading Rico's write-up. Really fascinating. I may become a convert of that "GRAIN" option.

[danwells]

I've watched a lot of the videos today, on a nasty, rainy Saturday, and read most of the reviews... There is only one feature I haven't seen discussed here. Ueno-san, the X-Pro 2's  designer, discusses a "brand-new shutter mechanism", which doesn't make a ton of sense (it also gets picked up in a lot of reviews, but I think the original source is none other than the guy who designed the camera). I don't think it's a linguistic error - his English is very understandable. Wouldn't the shutter be an off the shelf unit (the shutter from the Nikon D7200 would serve very well, and seems to have the same specs, just as an example - I don't even think that shutter's new - it seems similar to what they've been using since at least the D7000)? I thought everyone just bought shutters from Copal, Seiko and perhaps one or two others, and a 1/8000 unit that covers APS-C and has 1/250 flash sync is a nice high-end shutter, but not anything revolutionary? It's listed as having a 150,000 cycle life, which is good, but pretty much what you'd expect in a high-end camera (coincidentally, it's also exactly what the D7200 shutter is rated for).

 

The Fuji Guys (again, official source) mention that it is the new shutter that allows the tripod mount to end up in the right place (presumably something about how the shutter mounts to the body). Is there more to the shutter than meets the eye? Fuji seems to put a lot of focus on the shutter for a part they presumably bought someplace, and for which there are off the shelf components that have the right specs, so seemingly no need for a special part. A bunch of reviewers also mention an unusually nice shutter sound (both quiet and not clunky sounding).

 

All modern shutters are very, very accurate. Could this one (assuming it's a custom job) be unusually well damped? I know the original A7 and especially the A7r had poorly damped shutters, and that they lost resolution to shutter shock - especially at longer focal lengths and in a range of shutter speeds from ~1/30 to 1/250 second. Could what's special about this shutter be that it's exactly the opposite? I can't think of anything else that could really set it apart and make it worthy of repeated mention. If it's just a standard Copal or Seiko, but new to Fuji, why make a fuss over it?

[umad?]

Where Sigma could make a big impact is if they start churning out a lot of Sony E and FE mount lenses. Sony REALLY knows sensors, they sort of know bodies, but they aren't as good at lenses. 

 

The thing is: a bit over a year ago Sigma said:

 

I’ts a bit more difficult to make ART lenses for the Sony FE system because of the not so large diameter of the mount. We don’t know why Sony did this. Likely because the E-mount was meant for APS-C first and only after that they did use it for FF too.

 

That's something many know - it is very hard to design good lenses (especially at the edges) for the E-Mount. The new sensor of the A7R II helps. I guess more cameras (A7 series) will move to BSI due to this.

 

Of course Sigma will someday produce mirrorless lenses. But I think they are waiting for either Canon or Nikon to enter the market. Why? Because if they designed their lenses for E-Mount and one of those two would release their mirrorless system with longer flange distance it would be difficult to get the lenses working (or Sigma would need to design the lenses for a longer flange distance anyway, making the lenses unnecessarily big). 

 

 

About the X Processor Pro: I guess Fuji will use this for moths/years to come in many of their cameras. And those will concentrate on different things (one being 4k). And it handles all of that. 

[brrrr]

in one of the reviews there were Full Well Capacity (18000e) and Read Noise (1e). With this, you can calculate the per pixel dynamic range the manufacturer states.  (I'd have to look for it - but it was one of those listed on the FR page) 

 

Of course, real life dynamic range will be different. But over 14stops is really impressive. 

 

very interesting data, can you elaborate a bit more on those two numbers?

 

also, can't find anywhere stating that Full Well Capacity number, care to share the source?

 

Thank you very much.

[umad?]

Furthermore on dpreview, Fuji said similar things (and there we have the SNR too): http://1.static.img-dpreview.com/files/p/E~TS590x423~articles/2176896871/DSCF9146-anniversaryeventslideshow.jpeg

 

 

The claimed improvement of 7.6db is over a stop of improvement! 

 

If this turns out true, I stand corrected. I didn't think we would see more than 1/3 of a stop improvement. (Nikon claims similar things with the D500. It looks like those new Sony Exmor sensor really are outstanding).

 

Anyway: we have to wait to see some RAWs (and measurements) to get "final results". But until then I'd say: this is one hell of a camera (and an awesome sensor and processor) 

Edited July 10, 2016 by umad?

[brrrr]

https://vimeo.com/151529361

 

Around 6:30 for the sensor specs.

 

Furthermore on dpreview, Fuji said similar things (and there we have the SNR too): http://1.static.img-dpreview.com/files/p/E~TS590x423~articles/2176896871/DSCF9146-anniversaryeventslideshow.jpeg

 

 

The claimed improvement of 7.6db is over a stop of improvement! 

 

If this turns out true, I stand corrected. I didn't think we would see more than 1/3 of a stop improvement. (Nikon claims similar things with the D500. It looks like those new Sony Exmor sensor really are outstanding).

 

Anyway: we have to wait to see some RAWs (and measurements) to get "final results". But until then I'd say: this is one hell of a camera (and an awesome sensor and processor) 

 

thanks a lot

[danwells]

Ephotozine came up with a production volume number for the X-Pro 2 - Fuji can make 800 of them per day(160,000 per year, assuming they don't work weekends - and they're already in series production - there was an image of a tray of X-Pro 2s ready to go). Unless it's COMBINED volume for all cameras Fuji makes at Sendai (X-Pro 2, X-T1 and X100T?), that seems like a lot - it seems very reasonable, even a bit low, for combined volume. Total mirrorless camera production is somewhere around 3-3.5 million units/year, of which Fuji has maybe as much as 10% (I can't find a good figure anywhere, but the largest share is Sony, and Micro 4/3 is also ahead of Fuji). The other trick in these numbers is that they exclude the X100 series (the breakdown is by interchangeable versus fixed lens)

 

Fuji's volume is skewed toward the high end - a nice problem for any company to have (ask Apple - they make less than 30% of all cell phones, but 95% of the profit), but HALF of their total volume being a $1700 camera with an unusual viewfinder? If that's X-Pro 2 and X-T1 (X-T2) volume combined, it makes sense - half of their camera sales are high-end models made in Japan. With Fuji's lens line, that's reasonable...

[milandro]

50% of the profits is copy products, that’s what is financing the company activities right now.

 

 

 

As for photography, the the most profit they make is on instant film and instant cameras...

 

High end mirrorless makes some money, low end camera segment, is losing some money.

 

http://asia.nikkei.com/Markets/Tokyo-Market/Fujifilm-profit-seen-6-brighter-on-instant-camera-sales

 

"The future challenge for Fujifilm is to nurture the next growth business while its document solutions segment earns solid profits," 

[Tommy_hf]

But do production numbers match sales numbers? I did benefit from the large production numbers on the X-pro1 as well though as they were virtually given away for free when buying a couple of lenses :-) 

[ptb.1]

i want to know sensor x pro 2 by sony is bsi ?

[val]

 

The shutter sound.

God damn that is bloody beautiful!

[milandro]

G-D knows what you would think of the sound of a sawing machine! 

 

@https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgIsoos18TE

[Ektachrome]

 

The shutter sound.

 

God damn that is bloody beautiful!

Absolutely perfect.

[Ektachrome]

i want to know sensor x pro 2 by sony is bsi ?

I don't think so, but it is a thinner sensor stack and copper wired.

[milandro]

I am reading the Oxford dictionary definition of fetishism   it fits rather well!

[mdm]

I wonder, whether the gap between upper disk and the limb of the new combined shutter speed - ISO dial, will collect any dust in time?

[flysurfer]

I like the sound, too. It's kind of classy.

[umad?]

That really sounds awesome. 

 

And according to your review, we won't see any shutter shock like on the A7R or EM5? 

[Ektachrome]

It is classy. Refined. Makes me think of my old Leica film body somehow.

[andrew brown]

what does it mean?

Focusing

The number of selectable focusing points has been expanded from 49 on previous models to 77 for greater functionality and faster autofocus

i believe it has an increased area covered by focus points - hence the increased number of focus points...

 

Haven't done an in depth look yet, but it certainly has had some serious under the bonnet updates - whilst trying to remain true to the original...

[Yellerz]

I`m gutted the delivery date has been pushed back to the end of Feb. 

 

I have pre-ordered the X - Pro2 and 100 - 400mm lens with the 1.4 converter.  I can`t wait to get them.

[milandro]

life is so hard 

[danwells]

Fuji is as well set as anyone in the digital camera business - there's some profit in an X-Pro 2, and in a great lens - with their more unusual lineup, they'll never sell 10 million interchangeable lens cameras/year, but they are set up to be profitable on a modest volume of enthusiast/pro cameras... Almost all of the profit has been squeezed out of a $100 compact. Companies that rely heavily on inexpensive compacts (or even low-end DSLRs) have the problem that they can sell all the units they want, but they can't make anything at it (ask any Android cell phone vender - or ask anyone making Windows PCs a few years ago).

 

These are the camera companies that will probably make it:

 

Canon and Nikon will probably be OK - they both have pro businesses that actually make money (and Canon, like Fuji, is a copier company that makes cameras).

 

Sony WILL be OK - their real imaging business is selling sensors to everyone - ,actually mostly to Apple - their "real camera business", including both their own cameras and all the sensors they sell to everybody else in the camera business, is much smaller than cellphone sensors.

 

If I were mostly a Sony shooter, what I'd worry about is that, with the restructuring, the highly successful sensor division no longer has an interest in the camera division. The camera division, taken alone, is not in a great place - they have huge sales volume in compacts and cheap mirrorless (no profit), plus a smaller business in high-end cameras with some REAL innovation in the bodies, but with a lens problem. When they are no longer using the A7 series to showcase sensors, will they stay as interested?

 

Fuji will be OK - they are selling mostly high-end cameras and lenses with decent margins - FinePix goes away (and it will), and they're left with a profitable high-end camera business that keeps their name in the public eye - and several of their executives are passionate photographers (it came out in a recent interview that one of their chief designers is a Hasselblad Master when he's not designing cameras for Fuji, and I've heard of several others). They'd ditch that division if it lost a lot of money, but it's profitable (probably has better than decent margins), and it has a lot of PR value.

 

A high-prestige, profitable little division is something a lot of companies would like to have. They make something like half a million high end cameras a year (300,000 mirrorless and a couple hundred thousand X100Ts and X70s - remember that they can make 160,000 X-Pro 2s, and half a million might even be low), and might net $300 on each one,including lens profits (a nice little $150 million business)??? They're one of the few manufacturers who sell a bunch of lenses per body (other than X100Ts and X70s, of course), and a lot of their body sales are X-T1s and 10s, with some XE2 bodies mixed in (all high enough up the scale to be profitable, and many will sell several lenses each), not X-A1 and X-M1 bodies (probably hard to profit on, and tend to keep their kit lenses). This year will be even better, with significant sales of X-Pro 2 and X-T2 bodies and high end lenses to go with them.

 

 

 

Here are the companies I'd really worry about...

Olympus has been wracked by scandal, and is trying to sell really nice cameras with a huge sensor disadvantage. The 16 MP Micro 4/3 sensor is a generation or so BEHIND the older X-Trans II (it's similar technology, but it's significantly smaller and uses a conventional Bayer filter). They have no state of the art X-Trans III coming to bail them out. Just like Fuji before last Friday, they're trying to sell  one (or closely related, similarly performing) sensor(s) across their line.

 

Panasonic has a big gap in their line - some great video-focused cameras and some low-end cameras that don't seem to sell all that well. They have a similar sensor problem to Olympus, but they have their niche to retreat into. However, they also have a well-known video camera division. The logical move is perhaps to give the video cameras to the video camera division and get out of the low-end business...

 

Pentax has been making some great cameras, but getting no traction in the market (outside of medium format). Unfortunately, the medium format business is dependent on the DSLRs to have a parts bin to pull from - if the DSLRs go, the medium format business will soon follow because they aren't set up for ultra-low volume like Phase One - they grab processors and AF sensors made in much larger numbers and stick them in custom shells with MF sensors. Without that parts bin, they can't keep it up (at least not with the price advantage).

 

Leica has an M line with a cult following, but the rest of their products are divided between collector editions (most of which could omit the image sensor without risk of discovery) and several random lines with nice features, but radically overpriced and without enough lenses. They'll continue to exist, but will anyone actually use them to take pictures?

 

Hasselblad may have destroyed themselves with stupidity (who came up with the idea of rebranding consumer Sony cameras - in one case, complete with $100 kit lens)... A Hasselblad with a $100 lens????

 

Sigma will go back to making only lenses (what? they ever made anything else???), and Samsung will go back to phones, TVs and appliances....

[milandro]

Inside trading?