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Fujifilm X-PRO2 rumors


Patrick FR

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i'll wake up on a few hours and we'll have a new camera that I can't afford, although strangely looking forward to the launch.

 

More so, to see what will filter down the lines over the next year or two.

 

Specs leak on Oz site are interesting, more so on X-E2s, where it seems to show better auto focus, compared to X-E2..... so maybe not just firmware, but that is for a different board

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So I'm thinking the X-Pro2 will be exactly $1699 in the US since B&H is giving a gift certificate for that amount?  In effect someone gets the camera for free.

 

It appears that way. I certainly hope that is the price, or less, but not more.

 

Early rumor seemed to suggest a price of $2000 - (gasp)

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No longer a rumor. Found the below linked Verge article worth my while and thought I should share it. Discusses X-Pro2's and X-E2S' official features and pricing. http://www.theverge.com/2016/1/14/10766824/fuji-x-pro-2-announced-specs-price-release-date

 

Of course Fujifilm has the specs on their website too: http://www.fujifilmusa.com/products/digital_cameras/x/fujifilm_x_pro2/index.html

 

Cheers.

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I am pretty sure it will lift up. It will be pretty much the same dial as the Fujifilm GF670 (wich came out just a few years ago). 

fujifgf670dial.jpg

 

There you press the unlock button in the middle to get out of Auto Shutter (the red "A") and you lift the dial to change the ISO.

 

But even if it doesn't, it would stil be inconvenient because you will have to remove your eye from the viewfinder to change the ISO using that dial.

 

Looks like that combined dial, works pretty much as I "predicted". 

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I am pretty sure it will lift up. It will be pretty much the same dial as the Fujifilm GF670 (wich came out just a few years ago). 

fujifgf670dial.jpg

 

There you press the unlock button in the middle to get out of Auto Shutter (the red "A") and you lift the dial to change the ISO.

 

But even if it doesn't, it would stil be inconvenient because you will have to remove your eye from the viewfinder to change the ISO using that dial.

 

Looks like that combined dial, works pretty much as I "predicted". 

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I'm interested to see what the improvements are with regard to dynamic range compared to the x-pro 1. Nothing specific that can be gleaned from the specs or the few initial reviews.

 

I can see why they have refreshed at this stage; evolution not revolution (organic sensor), after 4 years they need to keep pace to remain relevant. 

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WOW ... PRO 2 looks amazing. Yeah there are a few thing that could be better, but overall - I'm in. Quite a few reviews and images out there based on pre-production models. Very positive feedback by reviewers.

 

The parallax thing is one issue, but there is always the EVF

I was hoping the EVF would be same class size and brightness as in the T1

 

Other than those minor things, the camera for me is more than I need, while the E-1 I have is not quite enough.

Life is tough. Maybe I will grow into it. 

 

Now the hard part. Waiting for shipments to start.

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I've been looking, and it doesn't seem like there are any bundles (the price came in lower than many had feared, but no extra discounts)..

 

One or two reviews do mention that it seems to have extraordinary dynamic range, although there is nothing resembling a measurement anywhere.4

 

A technical detail that appeared in the Fuji Guys (aren't they employees of Fuji North America?) video  is that this is a brand-new sensor using COPPER wiring in place of aluminum. I don't know about the IMX 271 (which was only released a few months ago), but NO older Sony sensor uses copper - the only one I know of is the A7rII sensor. If it's a Sony, this looks like the APS-C version of that sensor - a full generation newer (and perhaps higher-end as well) than anything else in a camera. I need to watch that whole video - there may be more on the sensor in there (the Fuji Guys said that the copper "gave them more room for pixels by cutting down on wiring" or something very close to that - sounds like it could be BSI or even stacked BSI)? The other possibility is a Samsung sensor (they have used copper, and are  (as far as I know) the only folks to do so in a large sensor outside of the A7rII sensor and possibly the new 100 MP Smedium format sensor) - but the resolution doesn't make sense for a Samsung... I'll watch the whole video and hope there's more on it (the copper tidbit was about 4 minutes in).

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Much of this looks like great improvements, but I'm tempering my enthusiasm for a little bit, as there is still an elephant in the room -

 

None of the reviewers had access to RAW files or processing. This means none of them were able to say anything meaningful about Dynamic Range, or whether there is improved treatment of fine detail in greens/foliage, etc., during RAW processing.

 

I will wait until I see some well controlled tests of dynamic range, and LR and other processors before getting super excited and pulling the trigger.

 

Everything else seems right though, so if the sensor lives up to the state of the art I'll be on board with it. We shall see...

 

That's a really interesting comments about the copper wiring on the sensor, etc. It's things like this we now need more detail on as well!

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[...]

 

 

copper, no BSI.

 

Sensor Dynamic Range per pixel: over 14 stops (but those are just the numbers, real life performance will be interesting)

 

 

Anyway it seems, we got a totally new sensor, no one used bevor. And it seems that it is outstanding too. 

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in one of the reviews there were Full Well Capacity (18000e) and Read Noise (1e). With this, you can calculate the per pixel dynamic range the manufacturer states.  (I'd have to look for it - but it was one of those listed on the FR page) 

 

Of course, real life dynamic range will be different. But over 14stops is really impressive. 

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I wonder if this is the IMX271 (a third generation of the Sony 24 MP sensor first seen in the NEX-7), which doesn't seem to have made it into any camera (unless it slipped, unnoticed, into a Pentax or two, or some APS-C compact), although it started cropping up on Sony spec sheets in April or so? The other possibility is a FOURTH generation sensor that is too new to be on a spec sheet yet... Does anyone know if the IMX271 uses copper wiring? It's supposed to have an extraordinarily fast readout, just like this sensor. Whether it is the third or fourth generation, this promises to be quite the sensor. The Photoreview article mentioned single-electron read noise (and Fuji has been boasting of extremely low read noise) - I'm not aware of ANY big sensor with read noise quite that low - they're getting better, but I thought the best were still around a couple of electrons. The sample high ISO shots in some of the reviews DO look very clean, and some of the reviewers have commented that it is unusually clean at high ISOs. I'm not sure the full well capacity of 18,000 electrons is correct - it's lower than previous sensors of similar pixel pitch (it should be similar or higher) - Fuji designer Takashi Ueno says that the signal level from the new sensor is significantly higher, which doesn't mesh with a low full well capacity (that I can see).

 

There is no way to get dynamic range greater than 14 stops out of a 14-bit analog to digital converter (yes, you can have a sensor whose full well capacity is more than 16,384 times the noise floor, but the converter won't give you more than 1 stop per bit). What may very well be happening here, and is happening with a couple of the very best full-frame sensors, is that we're coming right up on that limit. A 14-bit converter has noise of its own, so it won't give you QUITE 14 stops, and any sensor with more than 13 stops of DR is almost certainly seeing some limitation from the converter. A few modern sensors have begun to get into the range where this matters, and it sounds like the X-Pro 2 sensor is going to be one of them. The only cameras that can actually claim more than 14 bits of DR have a 16-bit A/D converter AND a sensor capable of picking up more than 14 bits. Right now, as far as I know, that group includes a few digital cinema cameras (some of the RED models, maybe an ARRI or two) and perhaps the new Sony 100 MP medium format sensor. Phase One has used 16-bit converters on a few of their CCD medium format backs, but the sensors themselves weren't giving more than 14 stops, so the 16-bit converter's function was to push the converter's own noise out of the picture, giving the best possible conversion from whatever 12-14 stop signal the sensor produced. The 50 MP CMOS back (which uses a medium format version of a modern Sony sensor) might have a 14+ stop signal, but it uses a 14-bit converter. The new 100 MP monster has a current-generation Sony sensor, which is at least pushing 14 stops, if not over, AND it uses a 16-bit converter.

 

Could we get more out of modern sensors below medium format by using 16-bit converters? Probably... There is some actual signal in the 15th bit on some full-frame sensors, and it sounds like the X-Pro 2 sensor will probably be the first APS-C sensor to produce any signal (other than noise) down there.16-bit converters are expensive (Red and Phase One don't care, but everyone else does) and produce a ton of data (Phase One shoots at 1 FPS, and Red sticks a huge processor in their camera, powers it with a 2 pound battery and  cools the resulting mess with a big ol' fan). The first 14-bit converter I'm aware of that made a difference was in the Nikon D3x, which had 12 and 14-bit modes. The 14-bit mode produced notably better files than the 12-bit mode, but it took the otherwise 5.5 FPS camera and reduced it to ~1.5 FPS. Later 14-bit converters are faster, and the processors are set up to handle them, but the first 16-bit converter in a "regular" camera will probably have a huge speed hit.

 

Another spec that is worth a glance is that 480 MP/sec processing speed! That's high enough to handle any imaginable video mode, including uncompressed 4K 60p (just barely) , and more than fast enough to deal with the frame rate and resolution of the fastest pro DSLR. It almost smells of medium format aspirations to me (total guess). Even if it's not meant for medium format, it is fast enough for any POSSIBLE autofocus or other processing...

 

The only other tidbit we hadn't seen all over the place that turned up in the Fuji Guys video is that the tripod socket is correctly positioned! It's right under the sensor, centered both from front to back and side to side.

 

And then there's the mysterious flash! I dug through all of B&H's flash listings for other systems, trying to figure out what Fuji had rebranded - and I can't. Their overpriced Sunpak rebrands are rather obvious - the controls are exactly the same as the Sunpak model (except for the "retro" flash) and even the model number is often similar. I'm sure someone's making it for them, but it seems to be a custom job (I tried matching it to Sunpak, Metz, Phottix, Yongnuo and Bolt/Bower/Vivitar, without luck). Maybe it's a new model from one of those companies (one reason Fuji's version might be coming out in May), and we'll see a Canon or Nikon TTL version in April and say "oh, THAT's what the flash is"... Dpreview's pictures do reveal that it's made in China , which reduces the likelihood that it's actually made by Fuji - they make their higher end products in Japan, and a lot of midrange stuff in Thailand.

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in one of the reviews there were Full Well Capacity (18000e) and Read Noise (1e). With this, you can calculate the per pixel dynamic range the manufacturer states.  (I'd have to look for it - but it was one of those listed on the FR page) 

 

Of course, real life dynamic range will be different. But over 14stops is really impressive.

 

Cool, thanks! Here's hoping...

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Some really interesting thoughts on the sensor and dynamic range, and the camera in general.

 

Personally, when we get some RAW processing and samples, if the DR is state of the art for APS-C as speculated, and anywhere near the better FF models I'll be seriously interested. As important as the DR is how clean the shadows are, and to an extent how ISO-less the sensor is. On my A7rii I can expose for the highlights and pull up shadows to balance the exposure almost painlessly, a little like a friend of mine, who is a pro landscape photographer, now does on his D810. It really is extraordinary - shots which would previously have to be bracketed can now be achieved in one capture. If Fuji have matched that kind of performance with the new sensor that will be quite an achievement.

 

If the 'waxy' detail problem has been mitigated in RAW for LR too I'll definitely be in - I have some hope of this with the NR settings now going down to -4, which suggests you might be able to turn what I believe before was un-defeatable RAW NR off completely, but we shall see...

 

By the way, was it just me, or did anyone else think the 33mm frameline is pretty much a confirmation that the rumoured 33mm f/1.2 is more than a rumour now? :)

 

In terms of the hugely faster processor, and the potential read speed of the sensor, yes, I feel the X-T2 will almost certainly have 4K video, and perhaps some other tricks. I'd be interested to see if it has that new 4.4K EVF which has been rumoured too.

 

IF the new sensor is fantastic, I'm getting close to the point I could switch completely to Fuji in the near future. An X-T2 with 4K, and especially if it had IBIS (I shoot primes, so none of my lenses are stabilised) would probably do it. Very exciting. Since Fuji's lens lineup is quite complete in terms of FL range, it would be lovely to see the whole range updated to the latest AF motors, weather sealing, etc., even if not optically.

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Thanks to all the great material on the X-Pro 2, including a ton of early reviews, I ordered mine from a favorite local dealer yesterday, and I can't wait to see what a weather-resistant, ultra-low noise 24 MP "rangefinder" with great dynamic range does in the field, especially with Fujinons on the front of it! It'll probably be the camera that hikes the Appalachian Trail with me (all 2189 miles of it) in the summer of 2017. It's been fun speculating and reading about the X-Pro 2 for a few rainy weeks in the middle of winter with the university closed, but the REAL fun with the X-Pro 2 will be shooting thousands of images with it as I pursue my doctorate studying how we interact with the wild (including artistic inspiration as a major part of my research).

 

Since I do some video as well, I'm also interested in the X-T2, and I posted some speculation on that topic over in the X-T2 thread. I won't repeat it in detail here, but I think it's going to have a lot going for it. I couldn't find actual specs about any other brand's processor speed, either in mHz and core type OR in Fuji's useful megapixels/second, but our new X-Processor Pro seems to be in at least the range of something like a D4s or a 1Dx, if not closer to the power of a D5's CPU. What does an image-quality focused RANGEFINDER need with that processor?  Half of it would have been just fine.. .My speculation(based both on the power of the X-Processor Pro and cryptic comments from Fuji folks)  is that the answer lies in the X-T2, of which I'm thinking "GH4 meets D500". Video specs at least the equal of the GH4/A7s class, with stills somewhere in the 10-14 FPS range and fancy AF. If it looks like what I think, my X-T1 (becoming a backup body the day the Pro-2 arrives in my hands) goes up for sale, and my bag contains one each X-Pro 2 and X-T2, choosing based on what I'm shooting (I won't carry both while walking thousands of miles (preferring the 10-24 over a backup body), but I may well trade cameras a few times).

 

As for the Sigma idea - interesting, but I tend to think unlikely. The reputation of the ART line is based on four DSLR primes in a very limited range (20, 24, 35 and 50) and a couple of odd fast zooms with limited range (18-35 f1.8 APS-C and 24-35 f2 fullframe). There is a more pedestrian 24-105 f4 zoom, a slower, less expensive 30mm prime, and three inexpensive mirrorless lenses that got thrown in ART because nobody knew where else to put them, but those aren't the lenses people talk about. The ART lenses are interesting because they fit mounts that people already have, and are often better than manufacturer equivalents (the superfast zooms are unique, but the primes aren't). Nobody would be interested if they were only for Sigma SA Mount.

 

Sigma has a huge problem if they want to introduce a mirrorless of their own - Fuji! The Fujinons are right up there in quality with the ART lenses, there are a LOT more of them, and Fuji loves primes (and high quality zooms) as much as Sigma does (no waiting for Canon or Nikon to update a 10 year old prime, while they release 14 versions of 18-xxx kit zooms). I think the reason Sigma hasn't ventured near the X-mount is that Fuji's own strength is too darned close to what they're trying to do.

 

Where Sigma could make a big impact is if they start churning out a lot of Sony E and FE mount lenses. Sony REALLY knows sensors, they sort of know bodies, but they aren't as good at lenses. B+H lists 15 Sony and Zeiss FE mount lenses (excluding Rokinon, Samyang, Bower and Lensbaby), with a LOT of focal length duplication in the 21-35mm range (because of Sony, Zeiss AF SOLD by Sony and a couple of variations of Zeiss MF). The shortest lens is 21mm  (there's a shorter Rokinon, but no quality-focused choice) and the longest is 240mm  (the long end of an indifferent travel zoom - there's a better zoom that goes to 200, and primes top out at 90). APS-C E-mount adds 20+ (again excluding Rokinon and friends), but they're largely variants on a couple of consumer zooms- (there are no less than five 18-200 f3.5-6.3s in there (two different Sonys, one in black and silver versions, plus a power zoom and a Tamron that is probably identical to one of the Sonys), and three low-end 18-55s (not counting the Zeiss 16-70), plus black and silver versions of an inexpensive 55-210. There is a single very wide-angle lens (the 10-18), but nothing longer than 210 (and the only quality-focused 200 is the FE 70-200).Yes, there are three or four really superb lenses in there, but only three or four...

 

Compare this to Fuji's 26 lenses (excluding Rokinon (&co.), Lensbabies and color variants). Only two are low-end XC lenses, with all the rest better than most of the Sonys. Even the 18-55 and 18-135 are a step above normal consumer zooms, and the rest are almost all superb. There are three wide angles below 20 MM equivalent (10-24, 12mm Zeiss and 14mm Fujinon), and a new lens that fills the last gap by reaching 600 mm equivalent. You can find anything except a fisheye or a T/S lens, and have a bunch of options at f1.4 or faster.

 

If Sigma started systematically filling in gaps in Sony's offerings, both APS-C and FE, they'd have a lot more impact than trying their own mount...

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