Fujifilm Managers Talk About Sony A7III, Low Resolution X-H1S, X-Trans 4, Sensor Shift Multishot, Mirrorless Future, DSLR’s & More

[Patrick FR]

Fujifilm Managers Talk About Sony A7III, Low Resolution X-H1S, X-Trans 4, Sensor Shift Multishot, Mirrorless Future, DSLR’s & More

https://www.fujirumors.com/fujifilm-managers-talk-about-sony-a7iii-low-resolution-x-h1s-x-trans-4-sensor-shift-multishot-mirrorless-future-dslrs-more/

[bergat]

It sounds strange that lens  could have problems to support more 30 Mpixel sensor

[kimballistic]

It sounds strange that lens  could have problems to support more 30 Mpixel sensor

 

The more pixels you put on a particular sensor, the smaller they become.

 

The smaller the pixels, the better lenses you need to resolve fine detail.

 

The smaller the pixels, the lower on the F-stop scale your sharpness becomes limited by diffraction.

 

Have you noticed that full-frame sensors have topped out around 50mp?  Well, to put things in perspective, our current 24mp fuji sensors have pixels sized equivalent to those on a 54mp full-frame sensor.  Our current fuji lenses are being pushed to resolve as much fine detail as the very best full-frame lenses on the highest-resolution full-frame bodies.

 

So while yeah, 30mp is not a whole lot on a full-frame sensor, a 30mp APS-C sensor has pixels sized the same as those on a 67mp full-frame sensor. I don't know of very many lenses that can resolve 67mp, nor do I know of very many photographers who want to be diffraction limited at f/8 or worse (except for those silly folk who shoot m4/3  ).

Edited March 18, 2018 by kimballistic

[bergat]

Then in the future we have to wait for different lens that can  support more then 30 Mpixel sensors

[BobJ]

Sorry, but this sounds like bull****. The fact is that the sytem resolution is a product of the lens resolution and the sensor resolution and neither is limited by the other. The system MTF is the product of the sensor MTF, the lens MTF and the MTF of any other component such as an anti-aliasing filter (not present in Fuji cameras). Obviously if a lens was very bad then that product would remain low with an increase in sensor resolution. However the Fuji lenses are mostly excellent so I doubt that they could limit the system that much. Professor Bob Newman explained the physics very clearly in article in Amateur Photographer March 10th 2012.

They said that it wasn't possible to put IBIS into the bodies because the lenses would not allow it. That was clearly was not true either.

[kimballistic]

Sorry, but this sounds like bull****. The fact is that the sytem resolution is a product of the lens resolution and the sensor resolution and neither is limited by the other. The system MTF is the product of the sensor MTF, the lens MTF and the MTF of any other component such as an anti-aliasing filter (not present in Fuji cameras). Obviously if a lens was very bad then that product would remain low with an increase in sensor resolution. However the Fuji lenses are mostly excellent so I doubt that they could limit the system that much. Professor Bob Newman explained the physics very clearly in article in Amateur Photographer March 10th 2012.

They said that it wasn't possible to put IBIS into the bodies because the lenses would not allow it. That was clearly was not true either.

 

Hi Bob, we are in agreement that the lens resolution would be the limiting factor in determining the total system resolution in the situation where the sensor out-resolves the lens.

 

We just don't agree on what constitutes "very bad" or "excellent" lenses (to use your terms).  These are very subjective and somewhat emotionally laden descriptions (especially when you lead with "bull****") that fail to take into account the trade-offs inherent in the context of the entire system (i.e. APS-C sensor sizes, the resulting pixel pitch that is required to achieve these higher resolutions, and the desire to not have pixel-level sharpness limited by diffraction at larger and larger apertures as you reduce pixel size).

 

Cheers!

 

[BobJ]

Hi Kimballistic. With respect I don't think that you have quite understood my point, which maybe I made poorly. I agree that "very bad" or "excellent" are scientifically meaningless. However exact measurements of lens performance are not really relevant since in the scenario you mention the lens would only be the limiting factor if it had an MTF that was huge compared to the sensor's, so that the product of the two was mostly determined by the lens. This is never likely to happen in practice. My point is that the system resolution is always a product of the lens and sensor resolutions so a higher resolution sensor will always improve the system resolution with any lens. It is highly unlikely that one or the other could be a limiting factor. Diffraction is bit of a minefield but you are right. As the pixel pitch becomes smaller so diffraction starts to occur earlier, but the system will also also have greater resolution. in other words, if you were content with the same resolution as the wider pitch sensor gave  then the limit would be much the same. And of course smaller sensors need shorter focal length lenses for the same angle of view but the result is better depth of field, so that f11 is about the smallest aperture we can use before diffraction starts to become a factor but a full frame camera has to be stopped down to f16, its diffraction limit, (roughly) to get the same dof.

 

At the moment, as far as I am aware, apsc sensors with pixel counts larger than 24mp are not available. I personally don't believe that they have reached some kind of limit though. It looked like full frame had "topped out" at 12mp, then it went to 24, 36 and now 50. I would guess that full frame will go to around 80mp within the next couple of years.Sony is almost the only game in town now. The latest tech is never released straight away though. Sony will need to recover their development and tooling costs and a profit from the existing silicon first. It may be that Fujifilm are aware of a new sensor and working on a model to incorporate it. In the meantime they have to defend their present situation, much as they did with their statement about IBIS being impossible, while they developed it and no doubt agreed to patent payments. That's just my opinion of course.

[kimballistic]

Bob, thanks for expounding on your thoughts.  Now that I have refreshed my (basic) understanding of MTF I see your point.

[bergat]

Now in the market we do not see the 32 mpixel aps-c sensor, but in the future it will come out, and after that the  50 Mpixel sensor. With nikon 850 we saw that the many nikon lens do not resolv the mpixel of sensor. When this problem shall appear with fuji lenses? Om the other hand in the future fuji has to analyze the noise  for addensing of the pixel.

Edited March 22, 2018 by bergat