Thought on Sony holding back A7000 sensor/camera release

[Mark In Dallas]

Something that crossed my mind as I read that Sony is forcing camera companies that source their sensors from Sony to wait 6 months after Sony releases their camera using that same sensor.

 

It was originally rumored that Sony would release the a7000 with the newest Sony sensor in the first have of this year.  If that had happened all the other camera makers would have had a new camera in time for the Christmas Holiday season.  With Sony delaying the camera, and thus, the sensor, it really puts companies like Fuji and Nikon (And anyone else who is using that sensor) in a bind for the holiday shopping rush.

 

I wonder if this is a bit of a power play for Sony, and if it is, will it cause other companies to source silicon from places like Samsung and Panasonic.  Possibly that they are just holding the a7000 back on purpose.

 

You got to think that a new camera release some time in October or November is a huge sales volume that Fuji/Nikon will no longer be able to capitalize on.

 

Please let me know your thoughts.

[Trenton Talbot]

There's much more to the sensor than just a chip. And there's way more to X-Trans than a CFA pattern.

[CRAusmus]

It's Sony's sensor (their patent).  They don't have to let anyone use it if they don't want.

[Aswald]

I'm sure they will...... How else can they control and dictate the technology then? After all, it's still business and revenue. 

[mjh]

Holding back a camera ready to ship so not only the troubled camera division is losing sales, but the (quite profitable) Sony Semiconductor divison is losing even more sales as they cannot market their new sensor to Fuji, Nikon, Ricoh etc. – sounds like a completely crazy idea. But this being Sony, who knows …

[Iko]

Probably Sony makes more money from selling sensors to other companies than selling its cameras, I don't think they are

crazy enough to risk a shift to Samsung of Fuji, Nikon etc.

[Mark In Dallas]

I guess I just look at it as X amount of people will be purchasing a camera for Christmas, with Y choices.  The a7000 will be the latest generation of that glass of small interchangeable enthusiast cameras, and probably the best on the market at the time, at that price point.

 

If no one else has a new generation sensor, they wont really have a compelling camera to release.  The a7000 will probably compete with a x-e3, if that comes out, or similar generation.  X-T20 maybe?

 

And I am not arguing they make more money from selling sensors, however, if they can sell roughly the same amount of sensors, possibly a bit less, and also make their struggling camera division profitable/more profitable for the biggest season in a cyclical market, why not?

 

As long as you don't burn too many bridges so companies source the sensors from another company.  However, Sony might believe they have such a lead in sensor tech, other companies have no other options.  A reason why Canon is hellbent on manufacturing their own sensors. 

 

And as far as their camera division struggling, I believe the A7Rii is going to be a huge hit, and allow them to do this.  Maybe why it was the a7ii and a7rii were released so quickly.  Those are not typically "Christmas gifts for the spouse" and will be purchased if there is a need... typically.  Where as the a7000 is a great gift to the misses.  

 

I would be interested to know what all goes into the x-trans sensor other than the overlay and back end software.  I am sure it is quite a bit more.

 

Thanks!

[gordonrussell76]

Given this announcement today that they are going to be focusing their business model more as component developer and manufacturer as opposed to end user products, then the decision to hold the sensor back from who are likely to be their most important B2B customers over the coming years strikes me as utterly stupid.

 

The below might even result in them doinga u-turn on the 6 month lead before another company can use the sensor as surely if there main focus is B2B then the poor sales in thier camera divison can in no way offset that.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/30/us-sony-issue-idUSKCN0PA0EG20150630

[Carlos]

All the above is purely based on a speculation that Fuji might use the Sony A7000 sensor on the X-Pro 2. Fujifilm manager Takashi Ueno in his yesterday interview with Fujifilm blog, re-asserted the excellence of the X-Trans sensor and its perfect matching to the Fujinon lenses.

The excellence of the Fuji philosophy, vision and action that made it re-establish itself again as leader in an almost saturated market stands against the usage of the A7000 Sony sensor.

It is amazing how a rumour can establish itself as a truth built on solid ground, though it is only a speculation, maybe launched to ignite or activate circulation on the page. 

[Aswald]

Focusing on sensor alone is not going to save them. Sony had always had great eye for innovation but poor robustness in their product line.

 

Always a market leader. Just not a finisher.

 

Remember Walkman, Trinitron/WEGA/Bravia TVs, FH Series MiniCompos with their excellent APM drivers, Audiophile class ES AV/Hifi systems, Ultra slim and light Vaio, Experia Z.....

 

Are they going to let their A series mirror less go the same way? And what of  their uber expensive hi res audiophile digital player NW-ZX2...will there be a mark 2?

[Patrick FR]

Fujifilm manager Takashi Ueno in his yesterday interview with Fujifilm blog, re-asserted the excellence of the X-Trans sensor and its perfect matching to the Fujinon lenses.

The excellence of the Fuji philosophy, vision and action that made it re-establish itself again as leader in an almost saturated market stands against the usage of the A7000 Sony sensor.

 

Fuji buys the X-TRANS sensor from sony. Sony just changes the CFA from bayer to X-trans. If Fuji continues to buy their Sensors from Sony, then they could buy the latest and greatest Sony sensor (the one Sony will put in the A7000) and Sony will put the X-Trans CFA on it, which is designed by Fuji

[umad?]

 

If no one else has a new generation sensor, they wont really have a compelling camera to release.  The a7000 will probably compete with a x-e3, if that comes out, or similar generation.  X-T20 maybe?

 

And I am not arguing they make more money from selling sensors, however, if they can sell roughly the same amount of sensors, possibly a bit less, and also make their struggling camera division profitable/more profitable for the biggest season in a cyclical market, why not?

 

I think you got it the other way round. Sony is making money off sensors. If they hold them back (for their own use), Nikon, Pentax, Fuji and others will leave them. That means no money for R&D and that leads to the most important part of sony (outside of live insurance and playstation) to fail. No good idea. Sony needs huge sums for R&D to stay on top and that only works with many customers.

 

Fuji buys the X-TRANS sensor from sony. Sony just changes the CFA from bayer to X-trans. 

 

I have heard about that great sony sensor for months now. Still don't know, what makes it that great. 

About the CFA: personally I'd like to know, who's manufacturing it. If you compare different color channels (of different cameras) they are significantly different - no chance all those come from the same manufacturer. 

[Mark In Dallas]

"Sony is making money off sensors. If they hold them back (for their own use), Nikon, Pentax, Fuji and others will leave them."

 

Maybe, but their tech might be so much more advanced than the competition the companies are at their mercy.  Samsung, who appears to make a fabulous sensor in the NX1, is really the only competitor I see, perhaps toshiba or panasonic.  And to comment on Samsung sensor manufacturing and Sony, Samsung still uses Sony sensors in their Galaxy s6 phone.  As does Apple...

 

Which is another point, even if sony semi conductor stopped selling APS-C and FF sensors to other companies, they most likely will still be profitable as the majority of their revenue and profitability comes from mobile phones. So they could really care less about losing Nikon, Pentax, Olympus, Fuji. (possibly)

 

"I have heard about that great sony sensor for months now. Still don't know, what makes it that great."

If it is basically an APS-C version of the sensor in the A7rII, it will be awesome.  
-Back Side Illuminated 

-Way faster read out

-Phase detect sensors over almost the entire sensor

 

"About the CFA: personally I'd like to know, who's manufacturing it. If you compare different color channels (of different cameras) they are significantly different - no chance all those come from the same manufacturer. "

 

They do, only so many companies in the world have the ability to make sensors.  Kinda like Intel and AMD, not really any other major processor players.  Now, what you overlay on top of the sensor (x-trans) and how you integrate that sensor into your camera, and what you do with the data it produces, and how you process that information, there is your variability.  I imagine Fuji sends the color array to sony to lay over the sensor during manufacturing.  

 

It is just really interesting, in the past few years the embargo was the other way around.  Nikon would come out with their newest camera using the latest Sony sensor, and then a few months later, Sony would release their camera using the same sensor.  Then they seemed to come out at the same time.  Now sony is throwing their weight around... It seems.

[umad?]

My point is: what makes BSI at that pixel size special? I don't really see many benefits (but the price increase is probably dramatic)

fast readout? you don't necessarily need BSI for that. Most improvements I see with the A7R II are coming from improvements in the manufacturing process. Using copper instead of aluminum (as samsung already is). Don't know about Sonys process node - Samsung is at 65nm

 

About the manufacturer of the CFA. Fuji was producing sensors until they sold their fab to toshiba. Toshiba makes some really nice sensors (D7100/D7200), which compete (or at the moment even overthrow) with Sonys.

Panasonic sold to Tower Jazz, Aptina is now owned by ON Semi. There are also Chinese manufacturers. Others that need to be mentioned are CMOSIS, Renesas (where Nikon produced their sensor designs but the fab was probably bought by Sony), Omnivision and many others.

 

Btw. AMD is no manufacturer, they use Global Foundries. Some of the named sensor producers do the same thing (with TSMC and others)

 

Back to Sony holding back the sensor:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/30/us-sony-issue-idUSKCN0PA0EG20150630

 

they want to raise 4 billion Dollars for sensor manufacturing. If you spend that money into new fabs and R&D you want to stay on top. And to do so, you need MANY customers. If Sony Device Solutions were to tell all those customers (the biggest one being Nikon) to wait 6 months so Sony Imaging [those are different parts of Sony!) can produce some exclusive cameras, those customers would probably leave Sony - and that (with just 4 billions invested) would be catastrophic. Sony (as a whole) would/should/and probably could not do that. 

[Trenton Talbot]

About the CFA: personally I'd like to know, who's manufacturing it. If you compare different color channels (of different cameras) they are significantly different - no chance all those come from the same manufacturer. 

 

Fuji makes their own. They're also the only manufacturer (at least that I know of) that openly publishes the spectral charts for each channel of their CFA.

[x-tc]

 Excuses excuses. Its been happening for years now for both the rumors NEX-7 and X-PRO1 replacements.  

 

Did Nikon delay it's recent D7200 because of rumored sensor ? Is Sony delaying the release of the m43 cameras which have had the same 16MP sensor for years now?

 

If the rumored A7000 and X-Pro2 products were a priority to Sony and Fuji, respectively, then they would have planned and released product based on current sensor availability.  

 

Instead, in my opinion, the only thing the rumored A7000  and X-Pro2 have in common is they are rumored replacements for cameras which were released almost 3.5 years ago which are no longer a priority due to more successful product lines.  

 

In short, don't hold your breath for either any time soon and expect more rumors, followed by more excuses.  Like the Nikon D300 replacement which was last released 6 years ago. Yet, there are still people waiting for it and claim that it is in the works. 

http://www.dailycameranews.com/2014/04/nikon-d300s-replacement/

[Aswald]

I think that SONY is reshuffling things at corporate level and Fujifilm just cannot cope with market demands. As of recently, they've invested heavily in a new facility hoping to increase production. Needless to say, their X system's success took them by surprise.

 

What I do know is that the X-100/X-Pro series is somewhat of a pet project for Fujifilm. There is a strong following in Japan/Europe for rangefinder styled X series. While the X-T range is great for professionals, they still need a product to fill in the top-of-the-line spot. A camera which isn't the quickest but definitely is the prettiest. Inside and out.