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Fujifilm X-H1 Rumors


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#1 Patrick FR

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 03:33 PM

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IBIS (in body image stabilization) Coming to Future Fujifilm X Cameras – Trusted Source

 

Enjoy: http://www.fujirumor...trusted-source/



#2 Woodworth

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 03:57 PM

I sincerely hope this rumour is true.

 

The one thing that has been lacking from the Fuji system (for me) is IBIS and I am truly delighted that this may soon be rectified.

 

Fuji seems to be the one manufacturer who is really working with photographers rather than merely pursuing "in house" ideas.

 

Long live Fuji!


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#3 rrrrrichard

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 05:22 PM

I don't care about stabilization. It will certainly force the price up. But I already have the Fuji camera I want, so OK.

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#4 Tikcus

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 06:46 PM

This probably has a lot more todo with future Video features than photography, maybe the new Super X mount camera that was rumoured.

 

In photography IBIS has limited usefulness (same as OIS on <100mm lens), being able to hand hold a shot at 1/4 second using a 35mm lens is of little use unless your subject is stationary

You may not have camera shake but you replace that with motion blur.

 

I honestly can't think of a usage for IBIS for photography, that the 16-50, 18-55, or 18-135 lens can not do with their OIS

Architecture or landscape shots at night without a tripod, since you are using F8/11/16/22 to get the required DOF all those can be done with lens with OIS that are available now.

 

Don't get me wrong for handheld video it will be great, but for photography I can not see the point other than a tick box item


Edited by Tikcus, 04 July 2017 - 10:37 AM.

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#5 citral

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Posted 04 July 2017 - 11:30 AM

It's hard to judge now if this is good or bad.

 

Maybe they'll stick it only on X-T3 which is already more video oriented than X-PRO, and that would be ok I suppose.

 

But if they put it on X-PRO3 and X-E3, along with touch flippable screen, automatic modes with kitten recognition, and all this crap and points of failure, they are at risk with losing the public that made them become what they are now : actual photographers (not gear-heads) interrested in no-non-sense, robusts, photography cameras, not in sony's technology demonstration/proof of concept without a soul and so many menus and options by the time you have read the manual I've shot thousands of photos with my x-e1...

 

We are getting everyday further from the XPRO-1's spirit and I find it regrettable. Otoh, one can still buy a new one for cheap so... 


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#6 Hermelin

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Posted 04 July 2017 - 12:49 PM

I honestly feel like I don't care that much about IBIS. I rather pay less for a body without IBIS.


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#7 Woodworth

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Posted 04 July 2017 - 03:47 PM

In photography IBIS has limited usefulness (same as OIS on <100mm lens), being able to hand hold a shot at 1/4 second using a 35mm lens is of little use unless your subject is stationary

You may not have camera shake but you replace that with motion blur.

 

I honestly can't think of a usage for IBIS for photography, ... I can not see the point other than a tick box item

 

I'd have to take issue with this. Almost any handheld photography would benefit from some form of stabilisation, particularly in low light situations. This is not my opinion, it is my experience. I do quite a lot of theatre, concert and candid photography and this is where IBIS is useful. Yes, I know it won't stop subject movement blur and yes I know that architectural or landscape photographers won't have much use for it. I know that some simply don't want IBIS, but for those of us who do low light, hand held photography, using prime lenses, it is essential.


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#8 Tikcus

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Posted 04 July 2017 - 06:00 PM

I'd have to take issue with this. Almost any handheld photography would benefit from some form of stabilisation, particularly in low light situations. This is not my opinion, it is my experience. I do quite a lot of theatre, concert and candid photography and this is where IBIS is useful. Yes, I know it won't stop subject movement blur and yes I know that architectural or landscape photographers won't have much use for it. I know that some simply don't want IBIS, but for those of us who do low light, hand held photography, using prime lenses, it is essential.

 

if you shoot concerts or acts on stage at less than 1/125s I'd imagine the motion blur is present on almost every photo, if that is the look you're going for that's your artist interpretation.

When i shoot events I'd much rather have a usable high ISO, than be able to slow the shutter speed, as I generally do not want motion blur on the acts i'm photographing. (the exception being if I want to show movement)

 

All IBIS or OIS does is allow you to use a slower shutter speed, on long lenses > 100mm it is an advantage being able to use a shutter speed of 1/60 seconds without camera shake.

 

But shooting a 50mm/35mm lens (or wider) it makes no difference, as less than 1/60s motion blur will appear on anything that moves, and shooting a 35mm lens at 1/60s or faster there is no camera shake.

 

I also do plenty of candid street photography, again never missed a shot because of no ibis, as I'd never be using a shutter speed so slow camera shake became an issue before motion blur did


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#9 citral

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 10:21 AM

It's an evidence, but THE MARKET (of uninformed people who want every possible "feature" "or else" and think the next one will improve their non-existant vision) DEMANDS IT.


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#10 mqaa

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 10:28 AM

I really don't like the idea of my sensor shaking like it is hit by an earth quack all the time. Adds extra moving parts and that always results in a shorter lifespan of the camera.


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#11 Woodworth

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 01:30 PM

if you shoot concerts or acts on stage at less than 1/125s I'd imagine the motion blur is present on almost every photo, if that is the look you're going for that's your artist interpretation.

When i shoot events I'd much rather have a usable high ISO, than be able to slow the shutter speed, as I generally do not want motion blur on the acts i'm photographing. (the exception being if I want to show movement)

 

All IBIS or OIS does is allow you to use a slower shutter speed, on long lenses > 100mm it is an advantage being able to use a shutter speed of 1/60 seconds without camera shake.

 

But shooting a 50mm/35mm lens (or wider) it makes no difference, as less than 1/60s motion blur will appear on anything that moves, and shooting a 35mm lens at 1/60s or faster there is no camera shake.

 

I also do plenty of candid street photography, again never missed a shot because of no ibis, as I'd never be using a shutter speed so slow camera shake became an issue before motion blur did

 

You can imagine so, but in my experience there are about a 50/50 split between shots that need IBIS and those that need a shutter speed of 1/125s or faster to capture. Perhaps I operate in lower light levels than most, who knows? No-one really wants motion blur unless it's an artistic choice, certainly not my choice.

Where IBIS gives an real advantage is with prime lenses, especially the 90mm. I know I can set the camera to something like 1/125s at f2 with auto ISO and I'll get a shot, but sometimes it's simply better not to use higher ISO settings and this is where IBIS helps.

What I really can't understand is why anyone would not want the option of IBIS as it can be switched off if not wanted, but there may come a day when even the most ardent skeptic chooses to use it and benefits accordingly.

As to the worry about wear and tear, I have several Sony cameras, an Olympus and previously had Konica-Minolta cameras and it never seemed to be an issue. 


Edited by Woodworth, 05 July 2017 - 01:33 PM.

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#12 bhu

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 04:31 PM

A software-based IBIS is certainly possible. For video, this is "old" technology where a processor looks for edges (high luminance gradients) and ties to pixel-shift from one frame to the next to keep low-motion areas of the picture overlapping. To apply this technique in a photograph, the camera would "merely" have to snoop images before and after the shot, do a similar process as with video, and re-compose the image.

 

There are difficulties, though, having to do with exposure time. The sensor exposure time is a limiting factor because, if the image is blurred during exposure, there is no good way to un-blur it. Sensor hardware may be able to drive past this limit by taking multiple, fractional exposures, processing the edge detection and alignment, then summing them for a properly-exposed image. This would be an image processing function for a very high speed electronic shutter.

 

Another method might be to snoop live images and, after the shutter button is pressed, wait for when the focus area shows high luminance gradients and discard undesired previous images. The camera's processor might not need to examine image captures across the whole sensor if the region of interest were in the center or found through face-detection. Introducing a short (but varying) delay in image capture from when the button is pushed might be acceptable if the delay is tolerably short. Again, this requires a very fast sensor, processor, and everything in between.

 

To make IS work on a body/lens without it, having a fast, sharp lens helps to ensure the sensor gets enough photons, quickly enough, for the two methods mentioned above.

 

None of the non-mechanical IBIS methods I know of do not rely on a very fast sensor and software to simulate mechanical IBIS or lens-based OIS. Fujifilm could be relying on a sensor maker to make a software solution viable. If Sony does IBIS on a camera without mechanical motion compensation, then Fujifilm should be able to get that, too, though I suspect Fujifilm will be doing their own software.



#13 Florian

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Posted 07 July 2017 - 12:42 PM

What I really can't understand is why anyone would not want the option of IBIS as it can be switched off if not wanted, but there may come a day when even the most ardent skeptic chooses to use it and benefits accordingly.

As to the worry about wear and tear, I have several Sony cameras, an Olympus and previously had Konica-Minolta cameras and it never seemed to be an issue. 

 

Would be curious to know the actual failure rate of the ibis in those cameras. So far, the anecdotal evidence seems to be that it's quite low; but that still leaves the possibility of it breaking down earlier than the other components as the cameras age. (any info on the older cameras with this feature?)

 

There is, of course, the battery usage, cost and size/weight argument, but I'd like to see more info on what the increases would actually be when implemented.


Edited by Florian, 07 July 2017 - 12:44 PM.


#14 Woodworth

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Posted 07 July 2017 - 08:58 PM

A thought occurred to me when thinking about camera wear due to IBIS, just how long do we keep cameras these days anyway? I have an X-E1 which I suppose is almost five years old but despite it functioning perfectly, the X-E1 is now selling for as little as £150 (used) in the UK and maybe even cheaper. It is probably really "long in the tooth" as far as most are concerned, elderly and not taken seriously. Sad really. I think it's still a great little camera and I will continue with it for as long as it works.

 

I would imagine that most people keep a camera for no more than three years as the lure of a newer model grows stronger as each new model is introduced. I can't imagine IBIS killing a camera within three years, or even within 5 years so whether it shortens a camera's operational life is probably academic for most people.

 

As to battery life, yes I'm sure it will empty a battery faster. So I keep plenty of spare batteries, solved!


Chris


#15 Florian

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 10:14 AM

...the X-E1 is now selling for as little as £150 (used) in the UK and maybe even cheaper. It is probably really "long in the tooth" as far as most are concerned, elderly and not taken seriously...

 

Wow, hadn't realised they have gotten that cheap. Mightily tempting to get one as a dedicated manual focus camera next to my good old x-pro1...



#16 epscott

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 04:47 AM

Being that there are already systems out there that can utilize IBIS & OIS simultaneously, I think Fuji has had a plan for quite some time. I also have high confidence that Fuji will get it right the first time. I don't think they can afford to get it wrong. I see them as having had two choices. Either don't do IBIS at all or do IBIS and completely dominate over everyone's else's implementation. If the rumors are true, then I think it's obvious that Fuji plans on going for the throat of Sony.
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#17 Larry Bolch

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 06:35 AM

I expect that they held off on IBIS until the current technology advanced to the point that it fully met their goals. When it arrives, it will likely be state of the art and only get better over time.


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#18 dclivejazz

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Posted 29 July 2017 - 05:16 PM

I don't want IBIS. From what I hear, it can actually slightly reduce sharpness and resolution in a regular photo. By regular, I mean a situation or shutter speed where you wouldn't be concerned with camera shake. 



#19 Larry Bolch

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Posted 29 July 2017 - 08:28 PM

I don't want IBIS. From what I hear, it can actually slightly reduce sharpness and resolution in a regular photo. By regular, I mean a situation or shutter speed where you wouldn't be concerned with camera shake. 

Like OIS in our present lenses, it can be toggled off if not desired. Use it as needed.

 

We know that Fuji did not think it mature enough technology to adapt it over the past half-dozen years. However, digital technology is always advancing and finally, a solution is being reached that will meet Fuji's standards. We can not judge in advance what we do not know, based upon the products of other camera manufacturers. We also have no idea when Fuji will be ready to actually market a camera with IBIS. However, I expect when they do, it will be a full generation ahead of what exists at the moment.


Edited by Larry Bolch, 29 July 2017 - 08:40 PM.


#20 johant

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Posted 29 July 2017 - 09:45 PM

A small problem of course, is that the Fujifilm managers have been very outspoken on this topic, and probably for a good reason.

Quoting TAKASHI UENO (Fujifilm senior product planner, Feb. 2016):


"The diameter of our mount was designed for the image circle without IBIS. It means the amount of light at the corners is reduced when the sensor is shifted. We could correct it digitally, but we don’t want to do it: we don’t want to compromise our image quality. [...] Our highest priority is always image quality. We hope you agree!"

 

Given that the laws of physics have not changed ... do they plan to compromise image quality after all? I do not agree then.


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