Clicky

Jump to content


Photo

X-E3 Concept

x-e2 x-e2s x-e3 concept

  • Please log in to reply
63 replies to this topic

#1 Jano

Jano

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 35 posts

Posted 22 February 2016 - 01:11 AM

Advertisement (Gone after free registration)
Dear Fuji,

I love my X-E2! Especially since FW 4.0 it has become a spectacular camera (save the waxy skin) and I'm so thankful for that FW update. I couldn't be happier when compared with the DSLR I was shooting before. Now give us that 23 f2 and then a 56 f2 and I'll be jumping for joy.

But as much as I love the X-E2 I really hope you'll one day give us an X-E3. And I'm pretty sure I (and many others) wouldn't be able to resist upgrading from our X-E2. Here's what I think it should look like:

Attached File  x-e3.jpg   147.51KB   113 downloads

Now let's get the basic specs out of the way and then I'll write some details about each one:

- WR
- No integrated space-wasting midget-flash
- 24 MP X-Trans III sensor
- Tilting touch screen
- Large EVF from the X-T1 but with higher resolution and that nice refresh rate from the X-Pro2
- Front and rear dial as well as a combined SS / ISO dial
- Focus-recompose and touch screen to select focus points (omitting the need for joystick or 4-way controller)


WR

I'd really like that but I can live without it. My lenses aren't WR anyway.


No Integrated Flash

Leave that thing out. It's so useless. Literally the only thing I do with it is popping it up and pressing it back in when I'm bored. I'm serious.
Integrated flashes are weak, very limited, add potential weaknesses, cast ugly shadows and make WR more difficult. For triggering remote flashes (the only real use this thing has) rather find a way to brightly flash the focus assist lamp if that is possible.
The money you save with this can go into adding a tilt and touch screen (see below).


24 MP X-Trans III Sensor

Pretty obvious, right? It would be even better if you added PDAF points on the whole sensor but I guess that won't happen.


Screen

Tilt screens are so useful. I want one. I know some self-proclaimed purists don't want one but that's nonsense. They can simply not use it. And no, it doesn't break easily. Especially not if you don't use it.
To accommodate the larger EVF (see below) you will need to make it more compact. I think you could keep it at 3" but all those huge borders around the actual screen area (like on the X-T1 / X-T10) need to go. Not a problem, others manage that as well.

Touch screens are so useful. I want one. I know some self-proclaimed purists don't want one but that's nonsense. They can simply turn it off. And no, it doesn't cost much and it also doesn't drain the battery when it's turned off.
It's embarrassing that so many cameras still lack one when we're in the age of the smartphone. The potential is huge but (like with the tilt screen) many fail to see that until they use a well implemented one. The main functions will be focus point selection (when shooting on a tripod) and menu navigation.


EVF

Yes, I want that huge X-T1 EVF. It's lovely and I want you to somehow squeeze it into the X-E3. To do that we'll need to move the screen and give up that 4-way controller which isn't needed (if you implement my suggestions for focus point selection). Add a higher resolution panel and give us that 85 fps refresh rate and we'll be extremely pleased.
Please give us a diopter correction that doesn't constantly move by accident. And mark the freaking neutral position! This is UI-101!


Dials

Give us a combined SS & ISO dial. Not quite like in the X-Pro2 but similar. Lift-and-turn is too difficult to perform since it needs a significant change in the right hand position. Instead make it so that the button on top toggles between ISO and SS. Almost always I'll keep either SS or ISO fixed and adjust exposure with the other. So toggling the two would be perfect. The outer design (SS outside, ISO in the little window) is great.
It would be even better if a deep press of the top button locked both settings so they can't accidentally be changed.

I'd love front and rear control dials. Make them like the rear dial on the X-E2. Not that mushy thing you put in the X-T10. And then give us the option to change ISO and SS with them by adding a "D" (for dial) setting on the SS/ISO dial. Simple concept:
- You like those labeled dials and only need full stops for ISO and SS: use the top dial.
- You prefer DSLR-style dials or need 1/2 or 1/3 stops: use the front and rear dial.
That way you can make all of us happy: everyone gets to use the dial they want and that ridiculous two-dials-are-needed-for-one-setting-thing has an end.

When I use the front and rear dials for ISO and SS I want a press of the dial to switch between manual and auto mode. When the auto mode is selected, turning the SS dial changes the minimum shutter speed and turning the ISO dial changes the maximum ISO. Simple as that.

Not a dial, but an important button: I want an AF button that works like the AF-ON buttons we are used to from DSLRs: press once for AF-S, hold for AF-C, half-pressing the shutter doesn't activate AF.


Focus-point Selection

We have two ways to select the focus point. Both are faster than joysticks or 4-way controllers and therefore (and since we have no space for it) we don't need either of those.

Handheld shooting: focus on your subject, half-press the shutter button (extra step when using AF-button to focus) and recompose. The camera automatically selects the new AF point closest to the subject that was initially focussed on.

Tripod shooting: use the touch screen to simply tap the desired focus point.

In handheld shooting using the LCD you can use either method.

-----

So, Fuji, these are my suggestions. I'm sure there might be some problems with this concept I haven't thought about but the general idea seems like a lovely camera to me. Here are a few additional (random) points:

- Yes, it would be a step up and probably cause this camera to be priced the same or closer to the X-T2. I wouldn't care.

- If the camera needs to become a few mm taller or wider to fit the large EVF that would be okay.

- The exact button placement would of course need to be tested on actual prototypes, this is just guesswork.

- Centered tripod mount please!

- Dual card slot would be awesome. And please let us insert the cards from the side.

- Adding Bluetooth for a stable remote connection with low power consumption would be great.

- I'd like to have the ability to use the EC dial as a WB compensation dial when shooting in manual mode with AWB.

- I forgot a Drive button in my mockup.

-----

What do you think of this camera? Would you buy it? Would you rather buy this or the X-T2 with the same specs? What would you do differently? Feel free to drop a comment. If someone with more PS knowledge than me (not difficult) wants to do a proper rendering feel free to do that. Just want to tell Fuji that they should release an X-E3? Here's your chance!

Edited by Jano, 22 February 2016 - 11:07 AM.

  • T-Man and gjolden@gmail.com like this

#2 Brian6878

Brian6878

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 3 posts

Posted 22 February 2016 - 02:03 AM

I agree with most points. Thanks for writing this up Jano. Yep, built in flash is useless.

What is really important to me is that Fujifilm continues this product line with the X-E form factor and comes out with an X-E3 with the updated sensor and associated features. I am not interested in the wannabe SLR X-T1. The key attraction to mirrorless is compactness and the X-E series is better suited than either the X-pro or X-T.

Fujifilm might be comparing sales. However, this would not be fair, since the XE series never introduced new features, just hand-me-downs. Whereas the X-pro and X-T1 did. That said, I would gladly purchase an X-E3 with handed down tech.
  • Curiojo, FXF and T-Man like this

#3 Immanuel

Immanuel

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 39 posts

Posted 22 February 2016 - 05:07 PM

Bigger view finder: Yes, please

Joy stick: Yes, please
WR: A must
I would rather have a smaller screen hight and push the screen all the way to the left

IMO, it is a shame the X-Pro2 does not have the big view finder. I would really like a WR camera with the big view finder in range finder style.


  • Immanuel and Marcin Petruszka like this

#4 Umlüx

Umlüx

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 1 posts

Posted 22 February 2016 - 06:50 PM

- WR: not really needed imho

- No integrated space-wasting midget-flash: maybe a midget, but can come in handy when you need just a tad more light

- 24 MP X-Trans III sensor: okay

- Tilting touch screen: also not really needed (also only imho!)

- Large EVF from the X-T1 but with higher resolution and that nice refresh rate from the X-Pro2: yes please!

- Front and rear dial as well as a combined SS / ISO dial: like the new pro2? yesss!

- Focus-recompose and touch screen to select focus points (omitting the need for joystick or 4-way controller): call me old fashioned i'd rather have a physical joystick (imho). maybe touch+stick both?


Edited by Umlüx, 22 February 2016 - 06:50 PM.


#5 TexasRanger

TexasRanger

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 1 posts

Posted 22 February 2016 - 06:55 PM

I'd keep the built-in flash. It's good for fill flash for backlit subjects. Otherwise, Fuji low light capacity is usually sufficient.


  • gigabloke, T-Man, GoodPhotos and 1 other like this

#6 Jano

Jano

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 35 posts

Posted 22 February 2016 - 09:47 PM

- Focus-recompose and touch screen to select focus points (omitting the need for joystick or 4-way controller): call me old fashioned i'd rather have a physical joystick (imho). maybe touch+stick both?

 

I actually thought about whether one could change the AF button to be a joystick and "press" the joystick as AF-ON. But I assume that would frequently lead to accidental changing of the focus point.

Where would you suggest putting it? I can't find a good location that is easily accessible without shrinking the screen or EVF and I doubt either would be a good move.



#7 Jano

Jano

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 35 posts

Posted 22 February 2016 - 09:49 PM

I would rather have a smaller screen hight and push the screen all the way to the left

 

I doubt that would be a good idea. The screen would be tiny. People today are used to larger screens and I can't blame them – larger screens are gorgeous and let you judge images much better.


  • T-Man likes this

#8 cug

cug

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 224 posts

Posted 22 February 2016 - 11:20 PM

Here's what I think it should look like:

 

Good that you aren't designing the next X-E camera ... just saying. Looks awful.


Edited by cug, 22 February 2016 - 11:22 PM.


#9 danwells

danwells

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 146 posts

Posted 23 February 2016 - 01:29 AM

They are unlikely to put all of this in an X-E, at least until the X-Pro 2 and X-T2 have had significant time to sell. It's just too close to the flagships. What we may see as the 24 MP sensor trickles down is more like:

 

24 MP sensor, same focus point pattern as X-Pro 2 and X-T2 (if there's a difference, the X-E3 will probably get the pattern from the X-Pro 2, not any extra points the X-T2 picks up).

EVF size a little bigger than X-Pro 2 (with an X-Pro 2 like refresh rate), but not in X-T territory (the huge EVF and any extra resolution the X-T2 gets are X-T differentiating features)

Probably non-tilting screen, although a touch screen is a possibility

It probably WILL get the X-Pro 2 combined shutter speed/ISO dial

No weathersealing(?)

Video specs of the X-Pro 2 (I'm guessing the X-T2 has some major improvements)

Single card slot

Probably gets the joystick (I suspect it goes with the big number of AF points) - might not if it has a touchscreen

 

Instead of an ubercamera that has every spec from the combination of the X-Pro 2 and X-T2, a more realistic X-E3 has the lesser  specs from each (viewfinder is neither hybrid nor X-T grade, for example) to keep the price down, and loses a couple of features the other two share (weathersealing). It may pick up a feature or two of its own, but they will tend to be features seen as consumer-oriented (touchscreen?).


  • Curiojo, Hamado and elmacus like this

#10 Brian6878

Brian6878

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 3 posts

Posted 23 February 2016 - 03:58 AM

I hope they don't omit the 1/8000 shutter or the faster sync speed on the X-E3. It would be very unfortunate if they reserve that for the xpro2/xt2.


  • gigabloke and Curiojo like this

#11 olli

olli

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 156 posts
  • LocationMetro Manila, Philippines

Posted 23 February 2016 - 01:40 PM

Interesting proposal but in removing the four way controller you just significantly degraded the ability to customise the camera. I don't use the controller for focus points but all of the buttons are assigned a specific function. You can't replicate this on a touch screen without requiring the user to remove his /her eye from the viewfinder.

Edited by olli, 23 February 2016 - 01:41 PM.

  • Curiojo likes this

#12 Jano

Jano

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 35 posts

Posted 23 February 2016 - 02:25 PM

Instead of an ubercamera that has every spec from the combination of the X-Pro 2 and X-T2, a more realistic X-E3 has the lesser  specs from each (viewfinder is neither hybrid nor X-T grade, for example) to keep the price down, and loses a couple of features the other two share (weathersealing). It may pick up a feature or two of its own, but they will tend to be features seen as consumer-oriented (touchscreen?

 

I'm not suggesting an ubercamera, I'm just suggesting to make X-E3 / X-T2 a choice of form factor, not of features. I'd want both to have the same basic features and price, just let the form factor be the difference. I agree it's unlikely that Fuji will do this but I'd like it.



#13 Jano

Jano

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 35 posts

Posted 23 February 2016 - 02:56 PM

Good that you aren't designing the next X-E camera ... just saying. Looks awful.

 

You had the chance to write like a hundred constructive things and came here to take a leak on my doorstep and leave. Nice social skills, dude.

 

It's not supposed to be a design concept. It's a concept for function and my mockup is just a first idea for how this could look. I forgot a Drive button and also a Menu button. Nothing final we're talking about. There are several things I don't like myself but because I'm just putting an idea up for discussion I don't want to waste hours and hours creating a perfect mockup. And since Fuji will likely completely ignore this my time would be even more wasted. What I do know is that most people here would love the large EVF and that can only be achieved through 3 possibilities:

- make the camera larger

- make the LCD (much) smaller

- move the LCD to the right

I proposed the third as the best compromise and I'm pretty sure actual designers could make it look really good. Not me but I never suggested I could.

 

 

But since you seem to be an expert on design let me at least say three things:

 

- This design is mostly taken from the X-Pro2 while adapting it for the size of the X-E line. Yes, the LCD is moved, the EVF looks different and a few buttons are moved but that's not a lot. All other views of the camera (front, top, bottom, sides) would look nearly identical to what we have now. Can't be that bad can it?

 

- Imho form follows function. Do I find those antenna bands on the iPhone 6 ugly? Yeah. Would I rather take back a glass or plastic back to get rid of them? No way! They lead to an overall better and more robust phone so I see it as a good compromise. Same goes for a camera. I love the look of most Fuji X cameras. Would I rather have it look slightly worse (only the rear side) if I could then have the huge EVF and a tilting screen? You bet! When I'm shooting I only care about function and feel. Looks only matter when it's sitting on my desk.

 

- Good design can take time to settle in. When I first saw the leaked iPhone 4 I didn't believe it was real. It was so ugly and looked so un-Apple-like! Now I consider the iPhone 4 to be the most beautifully designed iPhone we have had. Not practical with its easily breakable glass but beautiful.When the X-T10 was leaked here, many (including me) didn't like the design. It looked too square. It's still isn't my favourite Fuji design but I actually like it now.

It's the same with good music, good images, good coffee and others: sometimes it takes a while to appreciate a certain look/taste. This is not saying my mockup is designed well. I'm just saying that judging design by the first impression is not a good idea as it will lead to things always staying more or less the same. Things that look different take time for us to appreciate. I've been working on that mockup every now and then for a while now and while at first it looked ugly to me I now don't think it looks too bad anymore.


  • FXF and gjolden@gmail.com like this

#14 cug

cug

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 224 posts

Posted 24 February 2016 - 03:35 AM

You had the chance to write like a hundred constructive things and came here to take a leak on my doorstep and leave. Nice social skills, dude.

 

And you still don't have design skills, dude.

 

That abomination of a camera back up there is neither functional nor pragmatic nor anything else. And bringing up iPhone comparisons as an example for great design doesn't make your's any better. It's like like saying "this hammer should look like this, just think, you got used to the iPhone design as well". Bringing up completely unrelated designs to justify yours isn't helping the argument.

 

Sorry dude, but that's how I think about it. I've written a ton of stuff about this on this forum, on other forums and I'm not going to repeat the exercise here only because someone thought he found the holy grail of camera design. 


  • Hamado likes this

#15 Jano

Jano

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 35 posts

Posted 24 February 2016 - 09:07 PM

And you still don't have design skills, dude.

 

That abomination of a camera back up there is neither functional nor pragmatic nor anything else. And bringing up iPhone comparisons as an example for great design doesn't make your's any better. It's like like saying "this hammer should look like this, just think, you got used to the iPhone design as well". Bringing up completely unrelated designs to justify yours isn't helping the argument.

 

Sorry dude, but that's how I think about it. I've written a ton of stuff about this on this forum, on other forums and I'm not going to repeat the exercise here only because someone thought he found the holy grail of camera design. 

 

I'm not sure if you're simply as big an AH as you are trying to be here (other posts in this forum suggest you're usually a reasonable guy) but you obviously didn't understand a word of what I wrote.

 

Oh, and so sorry I dared calling you dude. So sorry, won't ever happen again...


  • Curiojo likes this

#16 cug

cug

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 224 posts

Posted 24 February 2016 - 10:12 PM

You approached the design from the wrong direction which is a classic pattern found when people don't have the experience to design a technical tool (which a camera is). 

 

You are trying to move stuff around in the design to compensate for things you think are technical challenges. What you should do is design the perfect ergonomics and style and have technicians figure out how to get it done, not approach it from the technical perspective and have the designers figure out how to make it look right. You've taken away a crucial interface element and moved things into a place where they don't really make sense from a usage perspective to accommodate something that other companies have already figured out: the A6300 has a 0.7x viewfinder and a same sized screen that even tilts – in a smaller camera body. Shouldn't be too hard to make the EVF 0.77 in the larger X-E2 body.

 

Technically you can literally take the screen of the X-E2, move it all the way to the left just like an X-Pro2, make it a tilt screen, relocate the buttons in the same place as the X-Pro2 and even add a joystick without enlarging the body. Just by using today's technology instead of yesterday's and optimizing things. 

 

In your design above, you moved stuff in positions that are ergonomically terrible like the AF button and the rear control dial. Then you don't leave enough space for the right thumb to not block the rear display by positioning the three buttons, which have moved to the right of the camera on the X-Pro2 for good reason, to a place where they hang without physical reference. It's a design that seems it came from "looks" and hasn't considered "feel". 


Edited by cug, 24 February 2016 - 10:14 PM.

  • Curiojo likes this

#17 Jano

Jano

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 35 posts

Posted 25 February 2016 - 12:03 AM

You approached the design from the wrong direction which is a classic pattern found when people don't have the experience to design a technical tool (which a camera is).

 

Thanks! That's what I meant with writing constructive things.

 

Some interesting points there. I'll think some more about a few of them and just answer a few:

 

- The position of the screen is imho largely irrelevant for ergonomics. It can be relevant when you have a touch screen and use that for focus point selection. In that case it is easier to use the further the LCD is to the right. Yes, there's too little room for the thumb. I thought about that and simply didn't bother changing it (like I wrote one might have to make the camera slightly wider for this design).

 

- I never had any issues with the buttons placed to the left of the LCD. Maybe I'd think otherwise if I had used a camera like the X-Pro2 but until now I always review images on the LCD and therefore hold the camera differently anyway so those buttons aren't a problem to reach.

 

- I wrote that the button positions are more of a rough guess. I dare to say that even the best designers need to build prototypes and test with their hands. I don't have any experience in design and therefore couldn't possibly position buttons in an ergonomic way just by doing a mockup on my screen.

 

- The A6300 has better EVF magnification, I hadn't compared that. The LCD though is 16:9 or something like that. Fuji uses 3:2. That obviously makes it possible for Sony to fit both on top of each other. Using 16:9 makes sense for a camera with video people in mind. For still-image-oriented Fujis it would lead to a significant reduction in image size when composing or reviewing on the LCD. You might be right that Fuij could fit 0.77x above a tilting screen in an X-E2 body. If they can do that it would of course be my preference. My mockup assumes they won't manage it. Maybe I have too little faith ;-)



#18 cug

cug

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 224 posts

Posted 25 February 2016 - 09:13 AM

Some more comments: 

  • The magnification of the A6300 EVF is closer to the X-T1 than to the X-E2. You'd get a near 20% increase from X-E2, from A6300 to X-T1 is only a 10% increase.
  • The screen is 16:9, that's true, but with the additional height of the X-E2, it shouldn't be a problem to accommodate a 3:2 screen. 
  • The the buttons to the right are so that you don't have to adjust hand position between shooting and reviewing and it makes it easier to integrate a flip or even a full articulating screen (if so desired). 
  • Moving the buttons to the right consolidates layout with X-Pro2, which is great for the very few folks who have both, plus it makes the design and engineering efforts easier as you have to properly test and design only a single layout. That's a big time and money saver for probably better results.
  • There shouldn't be a need to increase body size, if something, the d-pad on the X-E2 could be a little bit smaller than on X-Pro2 and the spacing between controls could be very slightly reduced while still keeping it very usable. 
  • I still question the benefits of the tiny flash, although as long as it doesn't cause space issues I'd include it, otherwise I'd like an EF-X8 if that could get a simple tilt operation.

In my personal opinion, these cameras all need a better front grip. I understand that Fuji follows form more than function here to keep the styling classy in contrast of the modern, streamlined Sony bodies.

 

This is fine, but what they should do is build in a battery grip electronics terminal into all cameras and offer a grip with electronic connection and a more ergonomic layout like the one available for the Olympus EM-5 which moves the shutter button and front dial to a much more ergonomic position. Personally I believe that Fuji should offer this for all their cameras as all of them would benefit ergonomically. Alternatively, offer it only for the X-E/X-Pro series and make the X-T series more ergonomic (move shutter button closer to where the finger naturally rests with a larger front grip without need for an additional grip.

 

There are many more ideas I have around this, having dealt with HI/UX experience for a long time (mostly software though, but hardware was included as well), but in the end, Fuji will do what they want to do. Our input is not likely to be considered.


  • Curiojo likes this

#19 MSW

MSW

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 89 posts

Posted 26 February 2016 - 07:02 PM

I would prefer keeping the current layout of buttons.  Also please move the tripod mount so the battery door can be opened when a mounting plate is attached.  How about an optional eyecup for the EVF to make it work better in bright sunlight.

 

These may apply to all models: 

--Wider auto exposure bracket (+/-2, +/-1, 0 )  not just limited to +/-1  Needed for HDR triples-- we haven't reached limitless sensor DR yet. 

--On X-E2 drive options, the two continuous frame rates seem either too fast or too slow to me.  Can we get something in between?

--UHS-II compatibility.  Need to clear the buffer faster!


Edited by MSW, 26 February 2016 - 07:04 PM.

  • Curiojo likes this

#20 fooltech

fooltech

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 7 posts

Posted 09 March 2016 - 05:01 PM

WR will result in the terribly recessed buttons and dials found on other weather sealed Fuji cameras, so please NO! 

 

A dedicated dial for Drive mode on top in that big space on the left side.

 

Faster processor and slightly larger EVF. 

 

Centered tripod hole so you can open the battery door, SD card on the side, don't need dual cards though. 





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: x-e2, x-e2s, x-e3, concept

 
x

Registration is free

Not registered? Really?

Discover the full potential of the Fuji X Forum... register now!
Registration is free and done in a few minutes!

As registered member you can discuss, post your questions and present your images.
And get in contact with Fuji X photographers worldwide!

We are looking forward to you!

The Fuji X Forum Team

Register Close