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#141 Tom H.

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 02:52 PM

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Takes skill....to be able to say that. ;)


It used to be that by the time you needed 3200, it was time to head for the bar anyway ;-)

#142 JDFlood

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 02:54 PM

Personally, I am going to start saving. This is definitely for me. ! JD

#143 Tom H.

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 03:50 PM

Personally, I am going to start saving. This is definitely for me. ! JD


I'll contact you when I need a new kidney!

#144 Aswald

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 04:05 PM

It used to be that by the time you needed 3200, it was time to head for the bar anyway ;-)

 

Ah.....sounds good!



#145 Aswald

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 04:12 PM

I thought that’s precisely what being a photographer was, having a set of skills to operate machines ( cameras and now computers too) and create images.

 

It's been a learning curve....... :)

 

"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, and miles to go before I sleep". Robert Frost.


Edited by Aswald, 21 September 2016 - 08:45 AM.


#146 Aswald

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 04:14 PM

Personally, I am going to start saving. This is definitely for me. ! JD

 

Hopefully sooner than later. I'd love to see a fellow X shooter with a G mount Fujifilm!



#147 Jlrimages

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Posted 22 September 2016 - 03:02 AM

It's starting to grow on me especially after reading more about it's functionality. The design sort of make sense but I'm also in the design industry so my outlook on industrial design may be biased. It's a bit straight forward for me. I'm just VERY glad it's small.

Can anyone help me with two things?

1. Focal Plane shutter (as opposed to Leaf shutter) on Medium format bodies.
2. 1/125th sec Flash sync speed.

Why are these two considered a negative attribute of a medium format system.

I've only used the Pentax 645 briefly and didn't come away convinced that I needed a medium format camera. Thanks in advance.

Lenses for cameras with focal plane shutters tend to cost less, as they don't have the shutter mechanism. BUT, focal plane shutters are limited in flash sync speed. On 35 mm systems, the fastest sync speeds are 1/250 sec. Because of the bigger sensor that drops to 1/125 sec. You can occasionally get some motion blur at 1/125 sec, but the biggest issue comes from the limitation in adjusting exposure when mixing ambient light with strobes.

In a flash exposure, your aperture controls how much the flash adds to the exposure while shutter speed determines how much ambient light is mixed into the exposure. With a focal plane shutter at 1/125 sync, you are pretty limited in how much ambient light you can keep out of the exposure. But with a leaf shutter like in the Hasselblad X1D, which can sync at 1/2000, you can cut the ambient portion of the exposure by four full stops over the Fuji's 1/125. That's huge. It means that you can turn a bright, overexposed sky into a dark deep blue. It means you need less flash power than you'd need otherwise, which is also huge since battery powered strobes are pretty expensive. In fact, the extra cost of leaf shutter lenses is generally made up in savings on the cost of strobes.

So, when Fuji announced that their new medium format camera had a focal plane shutter, every photographer throughout the world,whose work involves flash on location, let out a collective scream "Nooooooooo!!!" Fortunately Fuji seems to have indicated that they will make adapters for some third party leaf shutter lenses, and thus it's possible that we could see leaf shutters in some lenses in the future.

Edited by Jlrimages, 22 September 2016 - 03:04 AM.


#148 Aswald

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Posted 22 September 2016 - 03:57 AM

Lenses for cameras with focal plane shutters tend to cost less, as they don't have the shutter mechanism. BUT, focal plane shutters are limited in flash sync speed. On 35 mm systems, the fastest sync speeds are 1/250 sec. Because of the bigger sensor that drops to 1/125 sec. You can occasionally get some motion blur at 1/125 sec, but the biggest issue comes from the limitation in adjusting exposure when mixing ambient light with strobes.

In a flash exposure, your aperture controls how much the flash adds to the exposure while shutter speed determines how much ambient light is mixed into the exposure. With a focal plane shutter at 1/125 sync, you are pretty limited in how much ambient light you can keep out of the exposure. But with a leaf shutter like in the Hasselblad X1D, which can sync at 1/2000, you can cut the ambient portion of the exposure by four full stops over the Fuji's 1/125. That's huge. It means that you can turn a bright, overexposed sky into a dark deep blue. It means you need less flash power than you'd need otherwise, which is also huge since battery powered strobes are pretty expensive. In fact, the extra cost of leaf shutter lenses is generally made up in savings on the cost of strobes.

So, when Fuji announced that their new medium format camera had a focal plane shutter, every photographer throughout the world,whose work involves flash on location, let out a collective scream "Nooooooooo!!!" Fortunately Fuji seems to have indicated that they will make adapters for some third party leaf shutter lenses, and thus it's possible that we could see leaf shutters in some lenses in the future.

 

Thank you. Very clear and detailed explanation. I get the picture now.

 

I guess, this issue exists with other formats too. Perhaps it is more significant as previously most medium format cameras rely on leaf shutters. Would HSS be a possible solution to this issue? Granted HSS itself has issues.



#149 flysurfer

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Posted 22 September 2016 - 08:34 AM

Medium format facts: https://fuji-x-secre...jifilm-gfx-50s/


Fuji X SecretsX-Pert Corner – Flickr SetsRico's Fujifilm X camera books (use code XPERT40 for a 40% discount)


#150 Jlrimages

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 10:33 PM

Aswald said "I guess, this issue exists with other formats too. Perhaps it is more significant as previously most medium format cameras rely on leaf shutters. Would HSS be a possible solution to this issue? Granted HSS itself has issues."

Yes, one of the significant differences between medium format and 35 mm based systems is almost total reliance on focal plane shutters in the 35 mm world. There are a few fixed lens cameras that use leaf shutters (Leica Q and Fuji x-100 series as an aps-c example), but all system cameras are focal plane shutter cameras. For them, HSS is the only option.

But, HSS is, at best, a partial solution. According to Profoto, their B1 strobe, which supports HSS, loses one stop of flash power for every stop above the flash sync you go. So, if you use the B1's HSS function with the Fuji, to get to 1/1000 sec from Fuji's 1/125 sync speed, you lose three stops of power. That just turned a 500 w/s strobe into a speedlight. By contrast, the Hasselblad X1D, can sync at 1/2000 sec with no loss of power. Yes, leaf shutter lenses are more expensive, but, lighting gear, especially lighting gear that is light and portable, is very expensive. So, for those photographers who use lighting gear on location, the cost of the leaf shutters are well worth the price. It's no more expensive for them, and it cuts down on the bulk that they have to carry on location.

Edited by Jlrimages, 23 September 2016 - 10:49 PM.

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#151 Aswald

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 05:54 AM

Aswald said "I guess, this issue exists with other formats too. Perhaps it is more significant as previously most medium format cameras rely on leaf shutters. Would HSS be a possible solution to this issue? Granted HSS itself has issues."

Yes, one of the significant differences between medium format and 35 mm based systems is almost total reliance on focal plane shutters in the 35 mm world. There are a few fixed lens cameras that use leaf shutters (Leica Q and Fuji x-100 series as an aps-c example), but all system cameras are focal plane shutter cameras. For them, HSS is the only option.

But, HSS is, at best, a partial solution. According to Profoto, their B1 strobe, which supports HSS, loses one stop of flash power for every stop above the flash sync you go. So, if you use the B1's HSS function with the Fuji, to get to 1/1000 sec from Fuji's 1/125 sync speed, you lose three stops of power. That just turned a 500 w/s strobe into a speedlight. By contrast, the Hasselblad X1D, can sync at 1/2000 sec with no loss of power. Yes, leaf shutter lenses are more expensive, but, lighting gear, especially lighting gear that is light and portable, is very expensive. So, for those photographers who use lighting gear on location, the cost of the leaf shutters are well worth the price. It's no more expensive for them, and it cuts down on the bulk that they have to carry on location.

 

This is an excellent counterpoint. Thank you.

 

I was considering the Profoto B1 for my location shoot. I hadn't delved into HSS as I didn't need it before. I have been relying on ND filters which has it's own issues too. Color casts, hue...etc. So, your info is good for me to know. 



#152 Tom H.

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 07:23 AM

Benefit of a focal plane shutter is that you can always go back to a leaf shutter, the inverse it not possible.

I still use an old Hasselblad 503cw, and they also went with a focal plane shutter for their next generation of cams back in the day, while keeping compatibility with the existing lenses.

If Fujifilm releases one wide and one telephoto lens with leaf shutter, this whole hissyfit will be over.

#153 milandro

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 07:53 AM

I am old enough to remember speed graphics ( an other cameras too) which had both 

 

 

 

10637140386_daa9bba929_b.jpg

 

http://www.graflex.o...c/features.html

 

“....The name "Speed" in Speed Graphic comes from the 1/1000s shutter speed offered by its focal-plane shutter. The Graflex focal-plane shutter is the essence of simplicity -- a single long curtain of rubberized fabric with a number of slits.

The Anniversary and Pre-Anniversary models are have a somewhat confusing control system, but in the Pacemaker series, there is only a high/low switch, and the speeds read out directly in a window.

The high/low speed control on the Pacemakers engage a very simple and reliable governor. There are four slits in the curtain, one for 1/1000 & 1/500 sec, another for 1/250 & 1/125, another for 1/60 & 1/30 sec and a final one for TIME. The curtain is tensioned by what is essentially a window blind type spring.... and the tension is easy to adjust without much disassembly. They can be easily adjusted to within 1/4 stop.

The Crown GraphicCentury GraphicSuper Graphic, and Super Speed Graphic models all lack the focal plane shutter (though the Super Speed Graphic does have a 1/1000s between-the-lens shutter.) In a genuine Speed Graphic the focal plane shutter is the only part that might be trouble, but it is reliable and there are shops dedicated to fixing them. At worst, you can disregard a non-functional rear shutter on a Speed Graphic. It doesn't cost you anything but a slightly thicker case and a little weight.

The Speed Graphic is slightly heavier and thicker than the similar Crown Graphic. The 2 3/8" minimum film-to-flange distance required by the focal plane shutter on a Speed Graphic precludes the use of 65mm and wider-angle lenses, whereas a Crown Graphic is able to use a 47mm WA lens. Many modern wide-angle lenses in the 47mm-65mm range can cover 4x5", but classic lenses this wide were designed to cover 2-1/4 x 3-1/4, so they should be used with the 2x3" Graphics or with appropriate roll-film backs on 4x5" Graphics.

The focal plane shutters operate as a curtain with different sized openings, and can be set to two speeds with three different openings, producing speeds of 1/30, 1/60, 1/125, 1/250, 1/500, and 1/1000. (As for lenses with internal shutters, most will have speeds up to 1/400 or 1/500, while the Graflex-1000 goes to 1/1000 seconds, there are some some older ones only go as high as 1/200.)

Be careful to keep track of whether the curtain is open or closed, as mis-use of the focal plane shutter will keep film from being exposed (if you're using a lens shutter), and leaving the curtain open (such as for focusing) will fog film.

An advantage of having a focal plane shutter is that you can also use barrel lenses (lenses mounted without shutters). A 15" (380mm) Graflex Optar Telephoto, in a barrel mount is much less expensive (~$90) than the equivalent in a shutter, which seem to go for $250-300. Also, many vintage (1920-30's) soft focus portrait lenses are only available in barrel.

Use of a slow speed focal plane shutter should produce noticeable "lean" when you pan to follow moving objects.

Are the large focal plane shutters accurate? I checked mine out. 1/1000 sec is dead on. Your average modern SLR it is probably no more accurate...."


the popular expression wishful thinking is an oxymoron!

 

Please remove the obnoxious tapatalk signature, it adds nothing to anyone’s contribution and it is only a sneaky way used by tapatalk to push their product by polluting each forum participant with promoting their products. They don’t even pay you for this! Nobody really wants to know about the brand and type of your phone or the program that you use to post on the forum.



 
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